Conflict of Interest

[LWM]

I received an e-mail from a member who felt I have a conflict of interest as it relates to being a Moderator on this form as well as a Supporting Vendor. I have tried to be upfront in my postings to ensure that there was no conflict but there may still be some concern and I wnated to have a place for you to discuss the issue if you feel the need.

In order to avoid the appearance of selective moderation I have asked Sal-XK & 07JeepXK to be the primary moderators of the forum (a job they have been doing for a long time anyway). I will NOT be deleating or censoring posts so that there is no fear from members that I would delete negative posts regarding The Steel Armadillo or positive in favor of a competing product (I previously deleted 2 posts between El Cid & I which I thought should be handled between us but have since restored them). Feel free on the forum to comment on any product without fear of censorship.

Those who know me know that my intention in starting this forum was in the right place, starting the business was an afterthought but my desire to build this forum and support my fellow Jeep owners is still a priority, only now I have two ways to do that.

Please feel free to voice any concerns here or directly to the two Moderators.

[Sal-XK]

I for one am excited to see how the forum has grown in the last few months. I am also excited to see all the interest in making parts for the XK and think it's all going in the right direction. I've said it before and I'll say it again I don't see any censorship on this forum. This is by far the most open and unrestricted forum I have ever been on. We can bring any part or business up for discussion on this forum and nobody will delete your thread. I think we do a good job of implementing members requests or ideas they may have as well.

[hoaxci5]

The other part that I think keeps the moderation in check is a lot of us have communication outside of this forum. If any of the mods overstepped what we thought was reasonable a backlash outside of the forum would occur.

(Not a threat and I don't think there is a problem currently or in the past on THIS forum but we have seen what I'm talking about happen on another forum)

[Sal-XK]

The other part that I think keeps the moderation in check is a lot of us have communication outside of this forum. If any of the mods overstepped what we thought was reasonable a backlash outside of the forum would occur.

(Not a threat and I don't think there is a problem currently or in the past on THIS forum but we have seen what I'm talking about happen on another forum)

Bring it LMAO joking. I take the job seriously and before I delete or alter anything I ask myself a couple of questions first like is this for the over all good of the forum and its members. This forum is way relaxed in rules and we do a lot of things that would get deleted on the other forums for sure. In fact I can't remember the last time I touched a post other then for spam. I've had some posts deleted but when Don and I start joking around we can get a little carried away. :D Got to keep it family friendly LOL

[Holaday07 4.7]

Everybody seems pretty much focused on the helping one another more than anything, but it is always good to take preventative measures.

[LWM]

The thing I like the most is that even thou we have very few rules, our memebrs post with respect and understand our unwritten rules on code of conduct!

[cico7]

“A moderator shall act at all times
in a manner that promotes public confidence in the independence,
integrity, and impartiality of the forum, and shall
avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety.”

Abraham Lincoln 1845

[DetroitMarauder]

I think the mods are doing an excellent job. I belong to a couple other forums not Jeep related and some of the mods are very nazi-ish when it comes to something they don't like. I have seen none of that here though. I would, however, expect a mod to step in if someone starts getting flamed (not in the haha, joking way) by deleting posts or locking it but again, I have seen none of that going on. I don't mind heated discussions as long as they stay on topic and things stay respectful.

As for the the conflict of interest in owning the domain and being a supporting vendor: I see none. This is a private enterprise and Knappster you have the right to do with it what you want. No one is forced to be a member here and they are free to go elsewhere if they choose. I for one applaud entreprenuership.

This forum is fun and informative and I'm glad I joined. There isn't another forum I have been to where I personally would like to have a beer with and get to know the members. Keep up the good work.

[Bigredmariner]

Sounds to me like the person that sent the email is just jealous that he didn't start his own forum and business. You can not please everybody in this deal, you own the forum. Run it like you want and hold your head up high at the end of the day.

I own and sponsor one myself so I feel your pain. Don't change the direction of this place for the 1% that is not happy. Keep up the good work, I'll stop now before I get banned.

[Sal-XK]

“A moderator shall act at all times
in a manner that promotes public confidence in the independence,
integrity, and impartiality of the forum, and shall
avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety.”

Abraham Lincoln 1845

I have to go look some of these words up so I can understand this LOL.

Seriously though the theme of this place and why I put the work into that I do is because its always been about the good and growth of our hobby. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Matt]

The only thing jon needs to work on is remembering which username he's logged in under https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/07/rotfl-1.gif

[LWM]

All is good, Basically what I have asked the Mods to do is keep me in check, I will refrain from Moderation in the Vendor section in order to:

“act at all times in a manner that promotes public confidence in the independence, integrity, and impartiality of the forum, and shall avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety.”

I will still step in when needed to help hold the forum to the standard that we have grown accustom too. The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

[Matt]

.....in that case....

what's with that S.A. dude? Didn't he promise progress pics of an XK front bumper like 2 weeks ago??? That audacity.... https://theultimatejeep.com/notfound.png

[The_War_Wagon]

I'm still so new to Jeeps, I'm soaking it all in!

Being a moderator on an AR15 board, I can appreciate the struggle between wanting to cut loose, and professionalism - I'm sure that's tougher when you're also a sponsor, although I've seen that managed well elsewhere, too.

I like this board, because of the 6 Jeep forums I joined the first week after buying my Commander :p, this one is the most responsive, and has the most personable people. Matt saw me on another board and invited me to join, and I haven't been disappointed yet (blame him)!

I also like to spend money where I hang out, so as soon as I get some, I already plan on spending it here (which I realize is a lotta talk, until you ACTUALLY do it, but there you have it...). And other than the crazy guy with no doors on his Commander, I'm thinking no one else here would steer you into something crazy or hazardous - all YOUR rides still have their doors, fenders, & accoutrements relatively intact - a not unimportant consideration to a new board member whose about to mail Payment #2 on his Commander later this week! :eek:

I think the strength of this board is in it's low key/low pressure approach to helpfulness. I don't see anyone trying to build "Jeepzilla" here, and y'all have wives you hafta sneak stuff past too (I'm really looking forward to sneaking a 2" lift and 30x9 A/T's past MY wife... to say nothing of custom bumpers, rock rails, winch, and a roof rack :confused:). I ONLY discovered last night in fact, that Knappster and Steel Armadillo are one & the same! :eek:

[Steel Armadillo]

I ONLY discovered last night in fact, that Knappster and Steel Armadillo are one & the same! :eek:

That makes two of us! :)

[Sal-XK]

And other than the crazy guy with no doors on his Commander, I'm thinking no one else here would steer you into something crazy or hazardous - all YOUR rides still have their doors, fenders, & accoutrements relatively intact - a not unimportant consideration to a new board member whose about to mail Payment #2 on his Commander later this week! :eek:

Just point this guy out man I'll take care of him for you. I say we make him walk the plank of shame!

[hoaxci5]

(I'm really looking forward to sneaking a 2" lift and 30x9 A/T's past MY wife...

Step it up to at least 31s :p (I don't think you need anything extra to make them work)
My 32s required spacers and pinch weld mod so you may not want to do that

/end https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/11/icon_offtopic-1.gif

[cico7]

Ok, I have to come clean.......
The true quote:
"A Judge Shall Uphold and Promote the Independence, Integrity, and Impartiality
of the Judiciary, and shall Avoid Impropriety and the Appearance of Impropriety"
was from the original American Bar Association cannons of 1924.

I remembered part of this quote and amended it to fit the need of the forum.
I just changed 2 words, but it really is a good code of conduct.

[HueyPilotVN]

I'm still so new to Jeeps, I'm soaking it all in!


I think the strength of this board is in it's low key/low pressure approach to helpfulness. I don't see anyone trying to build "Jeepzilla" here, and y'all have wives you hafta sneak stuff past too (I'm really looking forward to sneaking a 2" lift and 30x9 A/T's past MY wife... to say nothing of custom bumpers, rock rails, winch, and a roof rack :confused:). I ONLY discovered last night in fact, that Knappster and Steel Armadillo are one & the same! :eek:

I am lucky in that my wife, (Lee) is always pushing me to find new modifications for the Commander. She is the one that talked me into buying the Stacker trailer to carry the Mustang and the Commander with us on trips.

Oh yes, and Jon I would not worry at all about being both a vendor and Moderator. Jon has as much integerity as anyone I know. I trust that he will always do the right thing.

[LWM]

Oh yes, and Jon I would not worry at all about being both a vendor and Moderator. Jon has as much integerity as anyone I know. I trust that he will always do the right thing.

Thanks Bill, that is the reputation I want to keep intact!

[ScorpionCrawler]

Oh yes, and Jon I would not worry at all about being both a vendor and Moderator. Jon has as much integerity as anyone I know. I trust that he will always do the right thing.

Well put Huey...and my sentiments exactly.
Jon, and everyone that make this place great, keep it up.
Still laughing about the guy without the doors giving advice.

[superacerc]

I think the strength of this board is in it's low key/low pressure approach to helpfulness. I don't see anyone trying to build "Jeepzilla" here, and y'all have wives you hafta sneak stuff past too (I'm really looking forward to sneaking a 2" lift and 30x9 A/T's past MY wife...

I really get pissed off at the peanut gallery on other forums that when you ask something like should i get a 2" lift or something similar they reply with: "Naw man don't do that, you need a 16" custom lift with 48" boggers and a 1000hp 454 Big Block Chevy. No I don't have one but i saw it on a show where they built one for $2million once."
Really? That's your advice?

[El Cid]

Jon should be commended for starting this thread. It shows the kind of transparency that will be necessary to handle what will be an increasingly delicate issue. I've been getting private communications from forum members or watchers who are lamenting the long-term impacts of this potential conflict of interest, yet they have feared to say anything publicly -- perhaps because they don't want you all to hate them, or they don't want to be banned, or who knows what. (If someone could tell me why the heck they write me, I'd love to know; I think it's sorta odd.)

The fact that Jon is opening up a public space for such comment is absolutely commendable and honorable -- whether folks choose to take advantage of it or not.


Oh yes, and Jon I would not worry at all about being both a vendor and Moderator. Jon has as much integerity as anyone I know. I trust that he will always do the right thing.

I, too, think Jon has a lot of integrity. No question there.

At the risk of sounding like Chicken Little, however, I think it is wrong to say that he shouldn't worry about being both a vendor and moderator. No offense to any saints out there, but I don't trust anybody to always do the right thing. At best, I trust a few folks (and I suspect Jon is one of them) to consistently do what they think is the right thing to do ... but which may or may not actually be the right thing to do. That's just life. :(

I happen to think Jon was absolutely wrong, for instance, in deleting the sequence of posts referred to above that could have put him and his business in a bad light; at the same time, I think he was absolutely right in undeleting those posts after I raised the issue of a double-standard at work. Jon did the right thing in the end, to his great credit, but he didn't do so instinctively. In other words, I think he does need to worry about the issue.

While I know one response is to say "If you don't like it, go home," I hope you can see that this is not a sound mentality for the long-term health of what has been a fantastic forum. The best solution is to bring any issues out into the open, as Jon is here doing, in order to confront them and deal with them. That's how strong ties are forged.

Speaking of being open, the more I think about it the more I'm not totally sure that it's a good idea for Jon to have the two names. On the plus side, it can help delineate the businessman/hobbyist aspects of Jon's role, but on the down side it can hide the fact of who's who. I'm just not sure what's best there ... not that it's my call to make, of course, but I wonder what others think?

I do want to put some more context on this issue, just to give examples of how this has been or can be a problem -- if nothing else to serve as examples for the moderators -- but it'll take me a bit to figure out the best way to do that. In the meantime, I hope folks can understand that I'm only pointing out these issues because I very much want to see this forum succeed -- and because other folks seem reluctant to talk about it.

[Matt]

As far as the "two names" is concerned.... I think the two names are somewhat necessary. BUT, especially for the sake of new members, I think he should post primarily under the SA name. Its very confusing when he switches names mid-thread.

The knappster name should be used only in the "site comments/suggestions forum" where you would expect to receive feedback from an "administrator" OR in other forums when the topic pertains to site related issues. $.02


..... think of it this way, should vendors be allowed to have a non-vendor name to post under as well? I don't think so, otherwise they could post bias "reviews" for their products and the members would think its a "user" review which is a bit deceptive.

Edit: not saying that Jon would be deceptive on purpose. But as we've learned there are already members who didn't know he was the same person on both names. .... so up until now, his posts under the knappster name look like a forum regular promoting a business they like, not an owner promoting his own business.

[cico7]

Mike has the most eloquent way of stating the facts of the case without raising the call to arms or being offensive. Thank you for that.
I heard several comments from others outside the forum about Jon's dual role as moderator and advertiser. I do not believe Jon is a saint,
but I do not believe he would intentionally obstruct or interfere with another advertiser. But let us not become mushy about Jon because he
may never come down, it's getting deep here.....


... perhaps because they don't want you all to hate them, or they don't want to be banned, or who knows what. (If someone could tell me why the heck they write me, I'd love to know; I think it's sorta odd.)
It is, Mike, because you have greater grasp on the written word and were the first to breech the subject without being offensive.
Or as Slim Pickens said it: God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.

[peteyturbo]

I myself am a vendor on a very high traffic car enthusiast forum, and IMHO I think it's a good idea to only have one s/n as a vendor and drop the moderation duties all together out of respect for the other paying vendors. Just put your former username or something to identify your old identity down in your sig and be done with it. You can still have fun and take shots when you are a vendor, as long as your customer service and/or product can back it up..I am new here so please don't take anything I say too seriously.

[Steel Armadillo]

Let's try to post the discussion on identities in this thread: http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/1469-Who-Should-Jon-Be and until the discussion closes I will use this ID only with the comment in the signature as suggested.

[El Cid]

I still want to get back to this in more detail, but I wanted to say thanks, cico7, for the compliment though I don't know it's true.

Nevertheless, your concluding analogy made me laugh, sh*tkicker.

(It's Blazing Saddles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37v-6Zs5T10&feature=youtube_gdata_player), baby!)

[SkidMarx]

Knappster,
Correct me if I'm wrong her, but don't you own this site?

[hoaxci5]

Knappster,
Correct me if I'm wrong her, but don't you own this site?

He sure does, so ultimately he can do whatever he wants.. but he's trying to do right by the members and other sponsors. If his members and other sponsors aren't happy the forum won't succeed and grow.

[SkidMarx]

Then I don't see how him being a moderator can be an issue. He will always be the Ultimate Mod.
If the question is whether or not he should exercise his rights or to what extent, that's a bit different.
Knappster already stated he wasn't going to moderate the vendor section. I would think that's enough.
I imagine only competing vendors would really worry about unfairness, but I think they should remember that one of their competitors is allowing them to advertise on his site and they should act accordingly. i.e. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
I'm sure the other Mods will step in if needed.

A note under his UID (whichever one he chooses) that says 'Site Owner' might clear up any questions any of us newbs have.

[cico7]

I imagine only competing vendors would really worry about unfairness, but I think they should remember that one of their competitors is allowing them to advertise on his site and they should act accordingly. i.e. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
The competitors are paying to advertise here, or so i thought. If that is the case, then the site
owner needs to be considerate of how his actions could affect his paying advertisers and how not to offend them.

As far as "owner" goes, that isnt really that important for him to advertise that. is it?

[LWM]

The competitors are paying to advertise here, or so i thought. If that is the case, then the site
owner needs to be considerate of how his actions could affect his paying advertisers and how not to offend them.

Here is a perfect post to show the example of needing two log-ons, I cannot answer this as a vendor because it is a forum business comment, not a Steel Armadillo comment.

Half of the current vendors were given a free sponsorship through December 31, 2011 by the forum owner as a way to promote their businesses and provide sources to forum members, they did NOT pay to be here. Those choosing to pay for a sponsorship will remain after that date, all others will be removed (like any other forum would do).

Any vendor that is removed will be for lack or payment NOT because they are competitors, I know one competitor has indicated desire to purchase and stay on and we will see how that works out in 30 days.

Other Vendors have already paid their 2012 fees and will remain through the lenght of their aggreement with the forum owner.

[cico7]

As far as "owner" goes, that isnt really that important for him to advertise that. is it?
I got carried away with "that". I am saying it is not really important for Jon to advertise he is the owner. Better?

[SkidMarx]

The competitors are paying to advertise here, or so i thought. If that is the case, then the site
owner needs to be considerate of how his actions could affect his paying advertisers and how not to offend them.

As far as "owner" goes, that isnt really that important for him to advertise that. is it?
True, but If that was really a problem, I doubt we would be here having this discussion.
Being identified as the owner is just a full disclosure thing. Not really important, but I think it might help.



Here is a perfect post to show the example of needing two log-ons, I cannot answer this as a vendor because it is a forum business comment, not a Steel Armadillo comment.

I prefer your Knappster ID anyway. Is it safe to assume you inform potential vendors that you are also a vendor?
If it's all out in the open then there shouldn't be an issue.

[El Cid]

I said I wanted to put a bit more context on this issue, and I'm trying to do so with a lot of folks' concerns in my head. Then, at the end, I'm going to try to get to a solution (of sorts)...

The crux of the whole matter, as I see it, is that the Ultimate Jeep Forum has grown so strong so quickly and so positively in large part not only because of the freedom to discuss products here but also because some businesses -- including 4xGuard back when that meant me -- made announcing products and discussing them here a regular occasion.

So let's use 4xGuard as an example, since I know it best (though this isn't really about 4xG, you understand).

When Jon was starting this forum, when there were just a handful of folks here, he asked me if I wanted to have 4xG come aboard as a Supporting Vendor. I did so, and I then tried to drive traffic to his forum in whatever way I could. In return, 4xG received an excellent place to freely interact with customers, and I felt that a lot of good came from that as a business. I think a lot of good came to our customers, too, and I think it's pretty much beyond doubt that a lot of good came to this forum.

The question that most vexes me thinking long-term (and hypothetically since we have since sold 4xGuard) is whether I would make the same choice now. That is, if I was 4xG and wasn't on this forum, would I come support it as a manufacturer, knowing that the owner of the forum (and in this hypothetical situation, mind you, I don't know Jon as well as I do) is a competitor? Does hypothetical me honestly want to support a competitor's forum? How fair a shake does hypothetical me think I'm going to get here?

That these questions are being asked -- and they are being asked, because two very real would-be supporting vendors have told me they will not join up because they don't know the answers to them -- isn't Jon's fault, but it is his responsibility. If long-term he wants vendors like 4xGuard taking part in the site, and I think he does, then he needs to have answers. In point of fact, we all need to have the answers. It needs to be transparent, because in the absence of information, misinformation prevails.

Let's keep with the 4xGuard example (and please keep in mind that we're using this as representative of what "vendor X" is going to see in trying to decide whether to support the forum and because it's what I'm familiar with).

Jon/Knappster/SA is on record here as claiming that Steel Armadillo makes "the toughest Rock Slider available." A good thing to say about his own product, of course, and he'd be a fool as a businessman if he didn't want people to buy SA rails instead of RR Supersliders or 4xGuard Side Guards. Fact is, once you're in business, you're not objective. You're in it to make money. No shame in that. At the same time, the forum owner badmouthing competing products, whether explicitly or implicitly, could easily give "vendor X" pause when considering whether to support the forum.

In the big picture, you see, when an unobjective business interest is the owner of the forum it could easily prevent other businesses from utilizing the forum as a means of outreach. Could 4xG have the same relationship with this forum when its owner and uber-Moderator is on record as claiming 4xG's products are inferior to his own? I wonder. And what if 4xG decided to react to Jon's claim, perhaps with engineering schematics? How is that going to go over? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you... but do you dare, as a business, leave such an attack unchallenged?

To return to another recent event: Not long ago, Doc (who makes and helped design SA's sliders) made the claim that 4xG's Side Guards mounted only with a row of cheap pop rivets. This was, as many members quickly pointed out, not true in the slightest. At best it was a lie of ignorance (assuming he didn't even glance under the slider to see the full mounting system), but since Doc is now building SA's sliders, which actually attempt to replicate the very same system, it could well appear that Doc was misleading folks in order to push his (and Jon's) own business interests. So what if 4xG wanted to make a stink about this? What chaos comes then?

Like it or not, the off-road accessories community is a fairly small group of folks. Word travels fast. Friends are long-term and loyal. If they see that something bad happens to one supporting vendor (whom they likely know) at the hands of the forum owner, I wonder if they will think twice about becoming a supporting vendor themselves.

. . .

In a PM to Jon I wrote this:

"I don't have any great advice other than the fact that either you must be vigilant on your own actions when your business is in the picture or you need to rebrand the forum as sponsored by SA."

Making this SA's Ultimate Jeep Forum, with no supporting vendors, honestly does make a lot of these problems (both real and hypothetical) disappear. On the other hand, I don't think this is what Jon wants (though I don't want to speak for him). I think he knows that the active presence of other manufacturers in the forum has been a boon and will continue to bear fruits.

If that is indeed the case, then the only solution is to trust to his own vigilance -- and that of the moderators, too -- and to maintain professional transparency.

As it happens, Jon has given evidence of doing both in this thread. First by creating the thread (transparency), and second by making statements like this:


The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

This one sentence should be mandatory reading for forum members. I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle. Not only should it put one strain of worries to rest, but it says an extraordinary amount about the kind of guy Jon is and the difficulty of the dual roles he has decided to take on. It's a remarkably mature position to take.

It is also worth highlighting here for some folks the fact that Jon is not reading PMs to see what you might be saying about him/his products. This possibility was raised to me off-forum, and it ain't happening. First, Jon doesn't have that much time. Second, he isn't that kind of guy. Third, he doesn't have the capability even if he had the time and the desire. My understanding is that the software assures that such things are truly private.

Jon taking on the additional role of business owner might well be cause for some discussion (which is happening now, and to a positive end, I think), but it sure isn't cause for putting on tinfoil hats.

[Sal-XK]

Here is a copy of the welcome message I've been sending all the new members


Welcome to the ultimate XK/WK forum. Here are some threads to help you get started. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. Also you might want to AKA any of your other forum names if you have any as many of us frequent the same forums. This forum is owned by Jon screen name knappster who also recently started the business The Steel Armadillo. You are free to express your opinions on this forum for or against any products or the forum with out fear. Just keep it respectful and constructive while doing it out of respect for all our members and vendors.


The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

Introduce yourself here (http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/67-New-here-Make-your-first-post-in-this-thread-Introduce-yourself-amp-your-Commander)
XK-Parts link (http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/541-Jeep-Commander-Parts-Links) Check out the must have listed parts
How to post a Picture (http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/605-How-to-post-a-Picture)
How to make a word a Link (http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/608-How-make-a-word-a-link/-insert-link)
What do all the options and buttons mean (http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/621-See-what-all-these-options-and-buttons-mean)
Putting a Face to a name thread
(http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/21-Putting-a-face-to-the-name?highlight=Face)
Sa-XK

Moderator

The red text and the quote from Jon is what I am proposing we add to that welcome message.

[Matt]

I think a lot of good came out of this discussion.

I will say this..... any vendors who decide to not come on board because Jon is the owner of SA are making a bad decision.

Maybe, due to the uncommon circumstance here, Jon could offer a 3 month "no strings attached" trial to potential vendors. If they don't like the atmosphere or think they're being moderated by SA then they don't stay. But I doubt that'll be the case.

Sal,
I don't think mentioning that Jon owns SA is necessary in the welcome message. Actually that acts somewhat as an "advertisement" for the business.... I think that our discussions in the other thread have already brought about sufficient changes (subtitles in his sig). From there I'm sure Jon will fine tune his usernames once he decides which way he feels most comfortable with going.

[cico7]

I dont disagree with you. When I made that comment, I was thinking in terms of an individual, not as vendor.
If this were only about Jon being a moderator and the owner, I dont think it is extremely important to know he is the owner.
As an advertiser/sponsor I agree 100%. In the words of a man I detest body and soul, I did learn 1 thing from him: Full disclosure or **** em


True, but If that was really a problem, I doubt we would be here having this discussion.
Being identified as the owner is just a full disclosure thing. Not really important, but I think it might help.
I prefer your Knappster ID anyway. Is it safe to assume you inform potential vendors that you are also a vendor?
If it's all out in the open then there shouldn't be an issue.

[ScorpionCrawler]

I have been following along as this thread has developed and I have tried to put myself into the various postions of all parties.
My first thought has to be how much potential financial impact this has to the owner of the site.
Sponsorship 1yr $100, 5yr $500, 25yr $1500.

Sponsorship companys that make similar products to SA would be the only ones affected.
If I was a competing vendor, of the similiar product, I would first be looking at how quick of a return I could get on the sponsorship investment, how much product would be sold from being on this site, and or how much would have to be sold to pay for the sponsorship?
I don't know the markup on armor or the like so how many sets of rock rails does that equate to?

Next, what would be the ramifications of being a sponsor?
Would SA bash my product, unjustly?
I think that threat has been eliminated with the moderators not being SA or knapster.
Anyone can really bash anything, so that threat will always exist, but the conflict would be if it came from SA.
So is sponsorship worth the risk of being bashed???? Only the sponsor could make that decision.

For me the bigger sponsor decision would be the return on sponsorship dollars.
With a few assurances from SA and or the site owner I would make that comittment.
To me it is clear that this is the BEST site for our platform and would be a great place to be a sponsor.

As far as knapster is concerend what is the sponsorship money really worth to him?
How many armor companys are really potential sponsors?
And what is that worth.
Is the value of other armor companys sponsorship worth more?

I don't know Jon personally other than reading his posts for many yrs at the other site and here and the few pms between us.
But the way I see it he has a huge passion for Jeep and his XK.
His comittment to developing the best Jeep formum out there is evident.
His comittment to developing products for us goes way back to the center console storage compartment lock.
The sponsorship part of it only adds to aid in making this site the best.
I haven't witnessed anything from Jon contrary to the good he is doing for the brand, forum wise or product wise.

Jon, having started this discussion also proves his comittment to other sponsors.

[Matt]

Sort of on the contrary to what you just said.... being a sponsor here doesn't subject you to criticism; we're allowed to critique companies whether they're sponsors or not. Being a sponsor here would ENABLE a company to respond to that criticism and backup their products.

Some of the best discussions I've seen on this forum have been when multiple vendors are intermingled in the discussion with the members. Us, the consumers, have learned a lot about the product design methodology with this which helps us, as consumers, select which products we want to spend our money on.

In the very limited WK/XK market that exists today, this forum is definitely one of the top (arguably the best) platform to get your products out there. $.02

[ScorpionCrawler]

Critique, that's the word I was looking for...probably better than bashing.
Mattress companys are best at that.

[GPintheMitten]

My thoughts are that I trust Jon and have always thought he has a lot of integrity. I can see why he would want two userids but I also understand that it could add another layer of complexity for Jon in when to use one or the other. And that could be confusing to others. But I figured it out pretty quickly when I came back to visiting this site after not being very active for a while.

It's good for us to have vendors on board to have our needs understood and met. I think vendors should not be afraid of being treated unfairly on this forum. On the other hand, claiming that you make the best product is NOT treating others unfairly. They can all claim their products are the best. But it could start a debate / argument so it might not be the best thing to say. You might better say, We strive to make the best products for our customers and are constantly looking at ways to improve them. or something like that.

My advice is that vendors that are considering having a presence here on the forum, to do it. This is not an SteelArmadillo user forum, this is an XK/WK enthusiast forum.

[LWM]

As posted in the other thread as well, I have come to the following conclusion...

I will do all my posting under "Knappster" with a comment in my signature that I am the owner of The Steel Armadillo. Vendors, including 4xGuard, Rhino Rack, ASFIR & others we given free vendor status for 2011, they can freely choose to pay and stay on in 2012 if they desire and that would be my goal for the good of the Commander enthusiasts. I have and will continue to disclose to vendors that I own The Steel Armadillo and they can make their own decisions which way they want to go.

Thank you for all your comments, it gave me a lot to consider.

[cico7]

Subject is pretty much closed now......

You see, I'm both Knappster and Steel Armadillo, not because I have to be, now, because I choose to be.


As posted in the other thread as well, I have come to the following conclusion...

I will do all my posting under "Knappster" with a comment in my signature that I am the owner of The Steel Armadillo. Vendors, including 4xGuard, Rhino Rack, ASFIR & others we given free vendor status for 2011, they can freely choose to pay and stay on in 2012 if they desire and that would be my goal for the good of the Commander enthusiasts. I have and will continue to disclose to vendors that I own The Steel Armadillo and they can make their own decisions which way they want to go.

Thank you for all your comments, it gave me a lot to consider.
From Batman forever.....

[Sal-XK]

Vendors not choosing to come here are only hurting there business IMO. Most of the highest modded Jeeps are on this site and the members here are some of the most enthusiastic XK\WK owners on the forums. We are also some of the most influential members across the forums as well and have people buying what we buy and doing what we do. To use an example I'll choose a non vendor Monroe shocks. Matt put there shocks on then I put there shocks on now there are a dozen people I know of running around with there shocks. Were open and honest about products and we don't pull any punches either and this will also extend to SA. If SA builds a bad or good product it will come out here honestly and without censorship. I am purchasing a set of SA super sliders tonight when I catch up on reading posts here and I will take them out and beat the living crap out of them :). As I always do I will start a review on the product and I will be honest on there performance.

[AJeepZJ]

Can't believe I'm just now seeing this thread. I feel the precautionary steps already taken will suffice. I do feel it will ultimately stunt competing vendors in relevant markets. I could be wrong, But I see this ultimately leading to us (TheUltimateJeep.com), providing a community-supported list of vendor links and/or products. Essentially a thumbs up that TheUltimateJeep.com community, as a whole, genuinely embraces... One fine such example was 4xG.

But Sal is right - In most cases we are extremely objective and we have no trouble holding back if someone, or something, provides amazing services and products... or vice-versa.

[cico7]

.... a community-supported list of vendor links and/or products. Essentially a thumbs up that TheUltimateJeep.com community, as a whole, genuinely embraces... One fine such example was 4xG.
I thinK JBA missed the boat here- they and 4X get enough publicty here. Maybe we should bOycott them! I have an idea.Ban anyone who mentions +hier name. Oh Wait, we escaped that tierny...