UC Davis Pepper Spray

[hoaxci5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJmmnMkuEM

Here it is.. all this talk of a civil forum I feel the need to stir the pot :eek:

Do you think pepper spray should have been used?

If so why? If not why?
As we all know this is a friendly forum, so please make sure to keep it to the topic at hand and not attack people for their beliefs.. Attack the logic, reason and thought process not the individual. :p

[cico7]

I wasnt there. I can only hope our LEO's used reasonable
Judgement making those decisions.

Kent State

[DetroitMarauder]

I say spray 'em again. Did you notice the camera wasn't turned on until just before the officer sprayed them? This is a purposeful tactic to show only what they want to be shown. What wasn't shown is that the officers asked them to move off the walkway multiple times and they refused. I also read that a few students admitted to doing this to provoke the police into doing something like this.

[BonesWK]

Did you notice the camera wasn't turned on until just before the officer sprayed them? This is a purposeful tactic to show only what they want to be shown. What wasn't shown is that the officers asked them to move off the walkway multiple times and they refused.

Well said. Im with this guy.

I would hope the officers warned them more than once and when no movement they hit em. You have to enforce somehow right??

[Bigredmariner]

At first when this story came out I was angry with the cops, it was put out there as another police brutality issue.

But after several days of coverage and a little reading on my part it became apparent that the cops gave all of these people fair warning to disperse. They all resisted and decided to sit where they were, so the cops sprayed them. I guess it was less messy than shooting them.

I don't blame the cops on this one at all. If you are told to leave, leave or suffer the consequences. Plain and simple.

[Holaday07 4.7]

From what I have read the cops had arrested some violent protestors, and were trying to remove them from the group. These students would not move, and had a few chances. Plus it was a deluted(sp?) Pepper spray as well. I dont have respect for these students in all honesty. I worked my way through college, and last may when I graduated I busted my ass to get a good Job. THese kids want their loans forgiven, and all sorts of ****. If you want it bad enough, then work hard for it. Sorry for the rant

[BonesWK]

to lighten the mood lol

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/11/lowdowndirtygoodtime3jpgw500h594-1.jpg

[cico7]

http://youtu.be/pr-zRI7Gu-U
I knew people who were Guardsmen and others who were students here.

[LWM]

The police do not have many options when people refuse to obey a "lawful" order to disperse, at first I thought abuse, but after continued coverage I back the Police.

[The_War_Wagon]

Kudos to BonesWK - and I'll pile on! :D


https://theultimatejeep.com/notfound.png

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/11/81eCg-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/notfound.png

[hoaxci5]

So I'm obviously going to be the odd man out in this one.. here's my thought though.. I see pepper spray as a defensive weapon. That is the biggest difference that I think causes the issue, since there was no one playing offense why was such a strong defense needed?

It's my understanding that police are to use presence, verbal, soft hands, spray, hard hands, baton, lethal.. now I know we don't get the full picture from the video but why couldn't the LEO's separate the chain and arrest accordingly without the pepper spray?

And just to be clear it doesn't matter what they were protesting that isn't what this is about, I don't support what they are protesting for in the least bit but that doesn't mean I don't support their right to protest..

[cico7]

They film crew did not start taking video when the police started spraying, the video was cut to create the greatest impact on the viewing
audience. What you do not see are the events leading up to the spray.

I believe you are correct on the order of the application of force, but the video does not show the fights, the drug sales, the looting and
vandalism. The video does not show the remaining conditions of the premises when the demonstrators left. It may be a construction site,
but it is private property.

The owner of the property can still be held liable for injuries caused by the vandals if the owner did nothing to stop the activities.

[hoaxci5]

In the video I posted he doesn't start spraying until 11 seconds in after showing everyone that he had pepper spray in his hand..

The fights, drug sales, and whatever else shouldn't matter with how the police respond to individuals sitting on the ground. If they had just witnessed that specifically with one or more of those people then they should have been targeted individually.. I doubt that group sitting there was seconds before partaking in some legal activity (beyond trespassing at this point which is arguable since it's a college campus but whatever..) that the police witnessed and then didn't attempt the first 3 steps of escalation of force.

[Holaday07 4.7]

if you are intentionally obstructing justice, be able to handle the consequences.

[Adondo]

They film crew did not start taking video when the police started spraying, the video was cut to create the greatest impact on the viewing
audience. What you do not see are the events leading up to the spray.

That is typical of just about any media event anymore. The media seems to have changed from just reporting the news, (decades ago) to trying to put a slant on the news.

I love how the cop just leisurely strolls along the line of protesters, with the stream of OC from the can looking as if it could be Round-Up being sprayed on weeds along a fence. Replace the cop's uniform with a polo shirt and jeans, remove the protesters, and replace the can of mace with a nozzle of a plant poison sprayer, and his pose would be exactly the same. Just my two cents worth. :D

[cico7]

..... (beyond trespassing at this point which is arguable since it's a college campus but whatever..) that the police witnessed and then didn't attempt the first 3 steps of escalation of force.
I see it was a Campus, I thought at first it was a construction site but i have my stories confused. It is still private property and the college is still responsible for the well being of everyone. We dont know what they tried before the spray started. He did warn them that he was going to spray by showing the can and no one moved.

If the police spray the protestors and they run off, the police dont have to arrest the them.

The police could have backed up the bus and hauled everyone away. From what I saw and have heard on the news, I think the police responded reasonably. Pepper spray is not violent, clubs, nightsticks and guns are violent.

Have you (ANYONE) ever been in the middle of something like this that turned violent? Not talking about military action involving people who have been trained, but as a bystander? I was once.

[hoaxci5]

Pepper spray as a punishment for a crime isn't right though, if they committed a crime they should have been arrested not punished on the street since it isn't the police officers job to punish beyond issuing a ticket.

[cico7]

Pepper spray as a punishment for a crime isn't right though, if they committed a crime they should have been arrested not punished on the street since it isn't the police officers job to punish beyond issuing a ticket.
Please, I view this as a discussion, not a debate or argument. We wont agree on the outcome I am sure.

I think the LEO's are responding to something larger than the kids sitting. They do have the responsibility to keep violence from escalating.

Dispersing the crowd does keep the activities from getting out of hand. What if they used water instead of pepper spray? Are they still punishing the protestors?

The water may not hurt but the water pressure does. A fire hose can break ribs or worse.

Wait, were you one of the protesters that got sprayed?

[hoaxci5]

I think if their primary role was to clear the crowd they should have dropped a tear gas canister and split :p

That's only half joking though, because in that case they wouldn't have singled out a few people.. there were more protesters than just those sitting in a circle.
If they have a responsibility to keep violence from escalating then why did they start it? (I view inflicting pain on someone as violence so that is where I'm coming from on that one..)

Nah you wouldn't catch me at a occupy protest, like I said in the beginning I don't agree with them, but I support their right to protest.

[cico7]

The police didnt start it, the protestors did when they refused to leave. They were given a lawful order.
If you want to maintain the fight, meet thier action with equal reaction. If you want to stop it, beat the **** out of them
with extreme prejudice and they can no longer argue. That stops thier action.

[hoaxci5]

By not leaving they started the violence? You either misunderstood what I was saying or have an interesting way of defining violence.

I still think they should have just arrested them without using pepper spray since there was no violence. As soon as one of them started fighting back then it's a free for all on that person and so on if it escalates.

[cico7]

By not leaving they started the violence? You either misunderstood what I was saying or have an interesting way of defining violence.
I believe you understood correctly. The protestors started this when they refused to obey a lawful order.
The proximate cause of the resulting violence is unlawful assembly.
The assembly became unlawful when they were told to leave. This is how I view it.

[Sal-XK]

I was going to stay out of this one but decided to chime in LOL First the police were ordered by the president of the university not to do anything and thats why the cop spraying and his chief were put on administrative leave for investigation. Which leads to my point that to many not all but way to many Police have the attitude there in charge no matter what and some how are above the law. I see all the time cops speeding for no reason or asking for ID with no cause and they get real upset if you know your rights and refuse I'm getting off topic I guess. College kids sitting down refusing to move with a standing order not to do anything with that information the COP was wrong. These particular students were protesting the raising of there tuition's where dozens of administrators not teachers admin people are making 200k+ a year and with the recent economy student jobs are impossible to find. Does all this matter maybe not but it adds a little perspective to the situation. I knew when reading Don's post he was getting his protests confused with the occupy wall street crowd which these kids where not. I mean we have cops caring automatic weapons repelling out of helicopters all kinds of crazy stuff now I can't be the only person that see a problem with this. I remember when a cop would pull over and help if you broke down now they just blow by you. I was walking with my gram once we got caught in storm and a cop picked us up and took us home you will never see that today you can't even ask them for directions with out them looking at you like your insane. Ok now I'm way off topic LOL remember I didn't say all cops I said to many cops :)

[hoaxci5]

I don't think you can use proximate cause as a justification for elevation of force. I'm no lawyer though.. I'd argue (discuss :)) that elevation of force must be a result of DIRECT threat or else LEO's could just run free and use proximate cause to justify any level of force they decided was appropriate which won't fly.

[cico7]

I was going to stay out of this one
How can you stay out?

A:
First the police were ordered by the president of the university not to do anything and thats why the cop spraying and his chief were put on administrative leave for investigation.
Sal, don't confuse us with the facts.

B:
Which leads to my point that to many not all but way to many Police have the attitude there in charge no matter what and some how are above the law.
They all seem to have an attitude about this.

C:
I knew when reading Don's post he was getting his protests confused with the occupy wall street crowd which these kids where not.
You are right, I was mixing up the stories.

Now we have a bigger debate, was it a lawful order? If it was not, the police have a bigger problem.

[Sal-XK]

I don't think you can use proximate cause as a justification for elevation of force. I'm no lawyer though.. I'd argue (discuss :)) that elevation of force must be a result of DIRECT threat or else LEO's could just run free and use proximate cause to justify any level of force they decided was appropriate which won't fly.

I agree and kinda what I'm trying to say the attitude of the police is no longer protect and serve and has slid to more of a paramilitary force IMO. I have a lot of family in law enforcement so I don't dislike the police just the direction they been going in for the last 15years. My sheriff's department is still old school when I built my house the stopped by and introduced them selves to me :) and gave numbers if I ever had any concerns they actually serve the community. I don't think I have ever even seen one of my deputies brake a traffic law.

[Sal-XK]

Now we have a bigger debate, was it a lawful order? If it was not, the police have a bigger problem.

The president of the university is in charge of the university police department over all so when she ordered them to not do anything it was a direct order from there superior. We all did know it was the university police department right or am I misinformed?

[hoaxci5]

Don't go bashing people or your might have your mod privileged removed :p

[cico7]

The president of the university is in charge of the university police department over all so when she ordered them to not do anything it was a direct order from there superior. We all did know it was the university police department right or am I misinformed?
I dont' know ****.....

[hoaxci5]

I really don't think it matters if it was a lawful order or not, that is where I was going with the disagreement with using proximate cause as the justification for the pepper spray.
What we don't see in the video is if any of the officers tried to arrest any of the sitting students. If they did and they fought back (an actual attempt to fight back is required for resisting, not cooperating is not resisting) then the pepper spray was earned.. I highly doubt that the LEO's tried to arrest the sitting students though, I think they skipped a step which is why I disagree.

[Sal-XK]

Don't go bashing people or your might have your mod privileged removed :p

I'm not bashing people I don't think am I? I'm bashing the core value of the new direction of a lot of Law Agencies mostly the bigger ones LA, NY those type places. We still have great law agencies in this country doing it right and keeping safe. You guys see the one where the florida state trooper pulled the Miami PD dude over in his squad car for going over 120MPH. Watch that video she is directly ordered by her supervisor to stop her pursuit but continued any way pulled the cop out at gun point and cuffed him. My point there in charge no matter what she wanted this dude and no body was going to tell her not to.

[hoaxci5]

From what I read it was UC Davis Police with support from other UC Schools Police Forces and City of Davis Police. It was however an Occupy protest. I'm not sure on the College President part or not though..

[cico7]

I'm not bashing people I don't think am I? I dont think so...

I'm bashing the core value of the new direction of a lot of Law Agencies mostly the bigger ones LA, NY those type places. We still have great law agencies in this country doing it right and keeping safe. I think it is cause and effect. I think in 10 years the repubs and dems are going to be shooting each other.
I see our country heading toward violent actions as way to accomplish goals. The police bring in martial law. Or is it the martial law that causes people to act violently?


You guys see the one where the florida state trooper pulled the Miami PD dude over for going over 120MPH. Watch that video she is directly ordered by her supervisor to stop her pursuit but continued any way pulled the cop out at gun point and cuffed him. My point there in charge no matter what

she wanted this dude and no body was going to tell her not to.
Any women we can offend here? Thats a woman for you.,...

I surrender, I am done. I am going home, been at work too long.

[Sal-XK]

I remember the university police and the president thing. I watch a lot of news a couple hours a day easy so I might of forgotten some of the details on this one it was a few days ago I think and there's been a lot on the news since then.

[cico7]

See, we are all confusing the events. There are too many protest going on to keep them straight!

[Sal-XK]

See, we are all confusing the events. There are too many protest going on to keep them straight!

I agree it seems the whole world in protesting something recently.

[hoaxci5]

and officially derailed https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/11/351479_photo-1.gif

[Sal-XK]

and officially derailed https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/11/351479_photo-1.gif

LOL sorry bro that's my fault I can clean the thread up if you want?

[hoaxci5]

Nah it's the natural progression of things..

But sounds like I'm still in the minority anyways.

[Sal-XK]

Nah it's the natural progression of things..

But sounds like I'm still in the minority anyways.

I thought I was agreeing with you. But I guess the police are aloud to use reasonable force to get people to comply with the law. Now ignoring that they may have had a direct order to stand down. Was spraying that crowd with pepper spray reasonable force to get them to comply with there order to move? Without the attempt to arrest the people in the first place there was no resistance to arrest. So no he was wrong and used his spray in a preemptive strike against the people.

[hoaxci5]

I dunno I got lost in your ramblings of paramilitary and florida highway patrol.

[Sal-XK]

I dunno I got lost in your ramblings of paramilitary and florida highway patrol.

Well, I did admit I got carried away :)

[DetroitMarauder]

I don't know about the school president telling them what to do. There was a reason they were called in. At that point they are the ones on the ground in the situation and they need to be the ones that determine the course of action. The president was probably sitting in their cushy office giving orders without real time information coming in. I understand cops have overreacted many times before but I have to believe these officers knew they were possibly in a volatile situation with a hundred cell phone cameras pointed at them and they acted in a way they thought was appropriate.

The issue was never that they were there protesting. It was that they were purposefully blocking the walkway refusing to move. They could have sat the same way on the grass lining the walkway with their arms linked protesting.

[hoaxci5]

Having cameras pointed at you is an even stronger reason to make sure you don't overstep, not a reason to use pepper spray. The cop obviously thought it was appropriate or else he wouldn't have done it, that doesn't mean that it was right though.

I won't argue that it was assault on the cops part, but I'm sure some scumbag lawyer will.. I just think it was an overstepping of bounds which the cop should be punished for but not necessarily criminally. I guess he has been put on admin leave (more than likely paid) and will return to duty after this all blows over.

[Holaday07 4.7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJD8pZiRIzs

Watch this, Adam Carolla could not have said it better IMO. I foresee this generation (my generation) as a bunch of *******.

[Sal-XK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJD8pZiRIzs

Watch this, Adam Carolla could not have said it better IMO. I foresee this generation (my generation) as a bunch of *******.

LMAO that was awesome and true!

[NeilSmith]

My thinking is that if you dont want to be pepper sprayed, tazed, and arrested, then dont purposefully put yourself in that situation. On the other hand, if you are trying to get a rise out of everyone and claim police brutality then the more power to you but you deserve what you get. If the cops ask/tell you to leave / disperse and you refuse to then you are trespassing and the police have the right to ticket or arrest. I dont have a problem with the pepper spraying, the cops made that decision based on what they were seeing and feeling at the time. We cant see the whole incident from this one video. If they came in bashing with batons and busting noses then I would think that was a bit extreme. The pepper spray looked to be pretty diluted to me. The constitution gives us the right to assemble and protest peacefully but once you are asked to leave private property then you need to move on. If they really were protesting something they should have stood out on the street corner with signs expressing their feelings not sitting on private property blocking passage of a sidewalk, instigating.