Would you remove the front frame support for a better WINCH bumper?

[LWM]

New thread created with updated poll.


Would you remove the front frame support for a better WINCH bumper?

1) yes I would cut that piece, and I plan on installing an aftermarket steel bumper someday.
2) yes I would cut that piece, but I don't plan on changing my bumpers.
3) No I would not cut that piece, but I would like a steel replacement winch bumper
4) No I would not cut that piece, but I would like a steel replacement non-winch bumper (steamline bumper)
5) No I would not cut that piece, but I don't plan on changing my bumpers on this vehicle.

Here is where I am at today WITHOUT removing the cross-member:

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0371-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0372-1.jpg

Here are some photos of another builders over-lay which shows where I would remove the item and drop the winch in that space with plenty of support to be as strong or stronger than stock:

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/DSCF0987-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/DSCF0988-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/DSCF0990-1.jpg

[Matt]

Yes, for a winch bumper I would prefer to cut that piece to keep the winch more "tucked in" as opposed to sticking out 18" in front of the bumper...... And I would like to install one someday.

[07JeepXK]

I would cut out the front frame support if it meant making everything stronger and like Matt said, if it helps keep everything tucked in.

[Matt]

Jon, you should bring those pictures into this thread too to explain/show why cutting that section (and replacing it with stronger framework for the bumper) is necessary to make a winch bumper that doesn't excessively protrude in front.

[LWM]

Jon, you should bring those pictures into this thread too to explain/show why cutting that section (and replacing it with stronger framework for the bumper) is necessary to make a winch bumper that doesn't excessively protrude in front.

1st post updated to show photos from other thread.

[Holaday07 4.7]

IMHO that bumper sticks out way to far. Is there an option to have more of a streamlined bumper if the winch would not be on it?

[cico7]

agree, sticks out too far.

[LWM]

IMHO that bumper sticks out way to far. Is there an option to have more of a streamlined bumper if the winch would not be on it?

Yes, I plan to make a "streamline" bumper but it cannot include a winch. That is option 4 in the poll.

[Matt]

And to be clear.... it sticks out too far because that crossmember is where the winch really needs to sit if we want a winch bumper that's more streamlined than that.... so for those who want a winching bumper, you'll need to consider the alternatives if you're afraid to cut out that section (and bolt in something stronger)

[LWM]

And to be clear.... it sticks out too far because that crossmember is where the winch really needs to sit if we want a winch bumper that's more streamlined than that.... so for those who want a winching bumper, you'll need to consider the alternatives if you're afraid to cut out that section (and bolt in something stronger)

Exactly, there are only three options if you do not remove the cross member:

1) Mount the winch in front of the cross member like my current R&D design as shown in post #1
2) Mount the winch above the cross member in front of the grill (similar to the GetLost bumper)
3) Mount the winch below the cross member and reduce your approach angle.

[cico7]

You need pics of the options, kinda like a mcdonalds menu.

[LWM]

You need pics of the options, kinda like a mcdonalds menu.

I would have to have photoshop skills :)

[Matt]

Exactly, there are only three options if you do not remove the cross member:

1) Mount the winch in front of the cross member like my current R&D design as shown in post #1
2) Mount the winch above the cross member in front of the grill (similar to the GetLost bumper)
3) Mount the winch below the cross member and reduce your approach angle.

4) get the more streamlined non-winch bumper with a 2" receiver and use a winch-in-cradle setup.

..... well that's what I would go with in that case.

But seeing how there are both WKs and XKs with winches behind the stock bumper in place of that frame section.... I'd prefer that method with a nice streamlined aftermarket steel bumper.

[Sal-XK]

I obviously will cut that piece out no problem and I also think it is necessary. With having no true frame to tie into I think doing this is necessary for strength. We all seen the pics of the get lost bumper that was yanked on to hard. Yes you may lose a sale or two from people that won’t want to cut the cross support out but I think most your customers will be the insane ones anyway who truly require a bumper to perform not just look good. True Jeep put that piece there for a reason but they also never intended for you to lift your Jeep or bolt on a steel bumper and slap a 15k LB winch to the front of it either and if they had they would of done something similar to this which a few members have already done to address the weakness in this area. The only way to make this bumper smaller as stated is to mount the winch on top up against the grill blocking air flow but you’re not addressing the issues with strength mounting a steel bumper to a unibody. You can’t make everyone happy in business unless you want to design and offer three bumpers which in this market I don’t think you will get your money back doing that. If I were to purchase a bumper like the GL I would be cutting that piece out and tying the bumper into that area for strength anyway. I don’t see how you can build a bumper for true extreme use without addressing these issues in that way. In fact when I put mine on I will be stiffening up more of the front unibody structure then just the cross frame piece. I want the ability to be yanked or winched off of or out of whatever mess I get myself into without worrying about ripping the bumper off. But then again I don’t worry about resale I found out a few months back I already messed that up so nothing to worry about for me now LOL. I also found out by purchasing the XJ that I love to wheel my XK!! There was just something missing and not the same when I was wheeling the XJ so my XK will be around for a long time if not forever

[LWM]

Well everyone will have their own opinion and that is why I asked, ultimatly I have to do what is best for business and at this point it looks like there are three projects on the table. Keep your comments coming as they help develop what the final outcome will be.

So far I am looking at:

1) replacement steel bumper with winch / requiring removal of cross member
2) replacement slimline bumper without winch / bolt on with no triming of steel (plastic fenders will need triming)
This bumper will be designed if possible so that you can order a replacement interior mount and change it into an option 1 bumper later.
3) front receiver hitch / front facia will need trimed

[Sal-XK]

Well I'll keep pushing for the most extreme option LMAO but I would guess that is no big shocker either LOL. I just read the other thread the one previous to this and what criket was talking about plating the front sub frame is what I was refering to as well. Just boxing it out with steel making it stronger to handle the stress of being yanked on. I'm sure this well mess up the way the Jeep suppose to act when it's in a accident and stuff like that because it won't crumple as designed after that.

[XK N00b]

I'm torn. The bumper prototype looks great. I have no doubts this will be a high quality product in it's final form. I want to go with Sal and say "Yeah, lets go extreme heavy duty with it." But I also have reservations about cutting into the frame of the Jeep. I would need to see the replacement bracing and how it's mounted. How would a bolt on brace behave when the Jeep is out and being bounced and flexed and under stress? I've also seen the pictures of the jeep with the torn off front end, so I agree that there has to be a better system for mounting a winch to these vehicles that would hold up to the strain of being winched out of the mud, water, sand, etc. I may have to see one mounted that's been out and used and abused, and a follow up tear down to see how the structure is holding up before pulling the trigger. I know it may be overly cautious, but I don't think the wife will let me buy a third Commander anytime soon, so I'd need to be sure. :p There ya go, if you can sell it to my wife, I'll buy it! :D

[Matt]

Sal... what's with your font? Can't see it very well in black stealth settting..

[XK N00b]

Well I'll keep pushing for the most extreme option LMAO but I would guess that is no big shocker either LOL. I just read the other thread the one previous to this and what criket was talking about plating the front sub frame is what I was refering to as well. Just boxing it out with steel making it stronger to handle the stress of being yanked on. I'm sure this well mess up the way the Jeep suppose to act when it's in a accident and stuff like that because it won't crumple as designed after that.

I thought about how it would behave in an accident having been reinforced. The car wouldn't bend as engineered, but something's got to give and (call me selfish) I would rather it be the other guy.

[Sal-XK]

I'm torn. The bumper prototype looks great. I have no doubts this will be a high quality product in it's final form. I want to go with Sal and say "Yeah, lets go extreme heavy duty with it." But I also have reservations about cutting into the frame of the Jeep. I would need to see the replacement bracing and how it's mounted. How would a bolt on brace behave when the Jeep is out and being bounced and flexed and under stress? I've also seen the pictures of the jeep with the torn off front end, so I agree that there has to be a better system for mounting a winch to these vehicles that would hold up to the strain of being winched out of the mud, water, sand, etc. I may have to see one mounted that's been out and used and abused, and a follow up tear down to see how the structure is holding up before pulling the trigger. I know it may be overly cautious, but I don't think the wife will let me buy a third Commander anytime soon, so I'd need to be sure. :p There ya go, if you can sell it to my wife, I'll buy it! :D

There are a few members already running this mod doing this was new about 7 months ago but not new anymore. What were doing is taking out a piece of the unibody that is very strong in one direction ( left to right) but if pulled in the other direction like being yanked on is week. Every thing you put on the unibody has to have its load spread out as far as possible or the thin metal will just buckle and bend and even tear. You couldn't just put a single bolt in there and yank on it like a normal frame, on the unibody you will just pull the bolt straight out. So by taking this piece out and I would prefer to weld a piece back in but even bolting some steel in it's place your making that entire section tons stronger than it already is but in both directions. if you're going to have a bumper you can yank on as hard as you want and not worry about it being torn off I feel this is the only option. I think our wives would be a lot more upset if we spent thousands on new bumper saying how we needed it for wheeling and stuff and then ripped off doing the things we said we needed it for. I know my wife would not be happy and say what did you buy that thing for then.


Sal... what's with your font? Can't see it very well in black stealth settting..

I don't know what I did but I hit the font button on accident and tried putting it back I thought it was close but guess not.

[Sal-XK]

I want to add that are unibody is stronger then most unibody's I've delt with. I was impressed on how thick it was in some sections.

[LWM]

I thought about how it would behave in an accident having been reinforced. The car wouldn't bend as engineered, but something's got to give and (call me selfish) I would rather it be the other guy.

I was in a crash on the freeway this past spring. The car I hit and the car that hit me were both totaled. Thanks to my steel bumpers I still have my Commander.

[criket]

Sorry about the confusion on the "subframe", that's just what I call it. Sal descibed waht I meant pretty well.

MY vote is yes I'd remove the thin piece, install something thicker and stronger, hopefully add a steel bumper to it, and while I'm at it add steel plates to the frame from the front to the firewall (for stability across many situations)

[Matt]

I'd like to remind everyone (because i think a lot of guys may be new since we had this thread a while ago) that by cutting that crossmember like jon is suggesting, we can hopefully end up with a bumper along the lines of this (which is the best winch bumper ive seen for an XK yet):

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/10/2680484286_0fe9424811_o1-1.jpg

[pjmjr508]

I'd like to remind everyone (because i think a lot of guys may be new since we had this thread a while ago) that by cutting that crossmember like jon is suggesting, we can hopefully end up with a bumper along the lines of this (which is the best winch bumper ive seen for an XK yet):

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/10/2680484286_0fe9424811_o1-1.jpg


Thats the bumper setup I want

[Holaday07 4.7]

I like that, minus the winch. I dont really need one, and if I did I would want a reciever for a multi mount. With that design though you could probably have one for a winch that needs the cross peice removed, and one without that does not. Everyone would be happy then, and it would be cheap from a manufacturing standpoint too.

[cico7]

Thats the bumper setup I want
I would like a side view to see how it sticks out.

[Matt]

I would like a side view to see how it sticks out.

Based on those lights, looks Like it doesn't stick out any further than the stock bumper

[GPintheMitten]

Here's another pic if it helps (without the front hitch receiver):

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/DSCF0935-1.jpg

[Sal-XK]

I'm on my phone so Im not going to look for it but. But segorea or something like that the guy from Korea has a nice thread about removing that section and putting the winch in it's place and there is a WK that did to. So there's some pics out there someone can dropp in here to look at.

[pjmjr508]

I'm on my phone so Im not going to look for it but. But segorea or something like that the guy from Korea has a nice thread about removing that section and putting the winch in it's place and there is a WK that did to. So there's some pics out there someone can dropp in here to look at.


I think your talking about this;
http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/943-My-hidden-Winch-amp-bigger-intercooler

[Sal-XK]

I think your talking about this;
http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showthread.php/943-My-hidden-Winch-amp-bigger-intercooler

Yup that's the one from Korea.

[pjmjr508]

I couldn't finds the one for the WK

[LWM]

I'd like to remind everyone (because i think a lot of guys may be new since we had this thread a while ago) that by cutting that crossmember like jon is suggesting, we can hopefully end up with a bumper along the lines of this (which is the best winch bumper ive seen for an XK yet):

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/10/2680484286_0fe9424811_o1-1.jpg

This is EXACTLY where I am heading and the mount will be bolt on (no welding) so that you can attach a winch bumper or a non-winch bumper to it.

[Matt]

I couldn't finds the one for the WK

Omelet did it in his build thread on JF

[XK N00b]

I'd like to remind everyone (because i think a lot of guys may be new since we had this thread a while ago) that by cutting that crossmember like jon is suggesting, we can hopefully end up with a bumper along the lines of this (which is the best winch bumper ive seen for an XK yet):

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/10/2680484286_0fe9424811_o1-1.jpg

This looks awesome to me. If your guinea pig XK doesn't want to cut his out for the mock up, let me know. Mine's available.

[cico7]

Omelet did it in his build thread on JF
Segon park did his Commander too...

[pjmjr508]

Segon park did his Commander too...

Covered that in post 31 with a link to the thread

[NeilSmith]

My thinking is that I wouldn't want to remove the center support in the uni-body. I think I have a little inside experiance dealing with the uni-bodies being in the collision business. I have a couple of concerns. Number one is structural integrity. These vehicles are designed the way they are for a reason. If you go messing around with it you could mess it up. But, you could also make it better. You don't know until you try, right ? Jon, you want to make a part that can be as simple of an install as possible. If the average guy gets the bumper and then he needs to do some cutting and welding on the uni-body then that could cause some problems. How many of you have a mig welder in their garage ? Now how many of you actually know how to use it and can actually run a nice strong bead ? You ever burn up an electronic system on a vehicle by welding on it because you didnt know what you were doing ? You dont want to be the one to do that. When we work on a vehicle that has been in a nice hard hit we have to be pretty precise when pulling, cutting, and welding the new part back in. If the new piece is not exactly where it needs to be, within a millimeter or two, then it causes problems elsewhere from the body panels lining up to the grille not fitting all the way to the front end alignment being off and wearing out tires. Granted, I'm referring to a collision repair here but when you cut out that support and weld in a new one it has to be right. My next concern is safety. The new piece that Jon makes will no doubt be stronger than the original part but is that what you want necessarily ? The structure is designed to crumple up and absorb the impact of a collision. Making it stronger may not be your best bet. Lets say you are in a wreck with another guy on the highway. It doesnt matter really who is at fault. If your vehicle has been altered and because of the alterations you cause more damage to the other vehicle than should have, can you be held liable ? What if the other person gets hurt because your big steel bumper ripped open his door like a sardine can where as an oem plastic bumper wouldnt have ? Believe me, insurance companies are really taking a hit due to replacing aftermarket parts like wheels and brush guards and such. They are on the verge of not covering the aftermarket stuff and even going as far as to refusing to cover the entire vehicle because of the alterations that the owner has done to it. I've seen it myself. I was told personally by a regional State Farm rep about the issue and some changes are on the way. So Im not saying that I wouldn't install one of the bumpers or even replace the center support. I'm just saying there are factors that must be weighed before you do so. On one hand , it would be nice to have it built like a tank and be able to pull on it without breaking it. On the other hand, do you want it built like a tank when you smash into another car and simply drive right through it ? God forbid something like that ever happens but it's something to think about. O.k. i'm finished. Jon, I'd like to have 1 bumper and a center support to go please. :)

[cico7]

Covered that in post 31 with a link to the thread
Great minds think alike!

[Matt]

Neil, Jon's trying to make this a bolt in replacement.... no welding. Done correctly, there wont be any structural issues (as far as making it weaker).

As far as making it stronger... those are valid concerns. But at the same time, modifying vehicles isn't for everyone. If you want to build your Jeep (or any vehicle) to do some serious (And fun) offroading and still drive it on the street, those are risks you have to accept. You can mitigate those risks by driving safely and remembering you're in a modified rig, not a Porsche.

On another note.... more people are modifying their vehicles these days just for fun; don't you want to protect yourself from being the "sardine can" :p. Lol

[LWM]

This installation would require the purchaser to remove the center cross member which could be done with a hack saw or saws-all, all replacement parts will bolt on so you will not need any welding skills or equipment. It is my intention to have you bolt the new mount in place prior to removing the cross member so there should be no moving of any parts due to the removal of the cross member.

[Holaday07 4.7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0plbzDV2gm4

saw this bumper today. looks nice and lo-profile with the winch

[LWM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0plbzDV2gm4

saw this bumper today. looks nice and lo-profile with the winch

Yep, that's the Maniac bumper, that is the look I am going for.

[NeilSmith]

I wouldn't have a problem doing it to my own rig. Every mod has its benefits and drawbacks, I guess. Another thing to consider would be whether the mod will pass your state's safety inspection, if your state has one. Here in Va you're not supposed to have an altered suspension which means that technically lift kits are illegal. But the shops dont worry about it and I've never heard of anyone failing inspection because of a lift except where they were too high because there is a height limit. Jon, I do like that it will be a bolt-in mod. What I really like is that it will be installed prior to cutting out the cross support to keep the frame rails from spreading apart. Just more things to think about.

[Omelet]

Hmmm, I might consider cutting mine.















Oh wait! I already did!!! :D




Depending on the design, the purchaser really only needs to make two cuts with a sawzall or angle grinder. Here is the wimpy stock crossmember:

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/0d7b6999-1.jpg

And the winch cradle I made to take it's place:

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/5cee744f-1.jpg

As the purchaser after the stock crossmember is cut out, you only have to bolt in the cradle/bumper using the tow hook holes plus drilling additional holes for added strength. So when you go to do the instal all you would need is a cutting tool (sawzall, angle grinder, cut off wheel, heck even a hack saw :D ) and a drill.

Once installed with the factory bumper (I know you are not using the factory bumper but making a steel high clearance one). This will help show the profile:

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/c2768f52-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/5d4924c9-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/83ea17d6-1.jpg

I am not trying to hijack! I just wanted to share some info and pics for those who have not already seen it. If you are buying a kit from a company, then it will be a fairly straight forward instal. They will have already done all the hard work for you and now you just have to make a couple of cut, drill a few holes, and bolt in your new steel high clearance winch bumper!

I have been running this setup since June with zero issues. Those who know me know that I do some pretty good wheeling and really flex this thing out. I have not had any issues with twisting or tweaking the frame. In fact I noticed better handling and a firmer steering after the instal which I assume is do to swapping the stock crossmember out for a 1/4" steel cradle!

[Matt]

^^^ I was waiting for you to post up man!!

Question- didnt you take measurements before you cut the crossmember and found that nothing moved at all once it was cut out? I remember seeing some pictures with the crossmember removed.

In other words, there wasn't any residual stress in that area so it didn't need to be braced before you cut it...

[Sal-XK]

Well, there's the WK I was talking about. Thanks for posting up you pics Omelet so everyone can see another example of what were talking about.

[LWM]

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/5cee744f-1.jpg

I have been running this setup since June with zero issues. Those who know me know that I do some pretty good wheeling and really flex this thing out. I have not had any issues with twisting or tweaking the frame. In fact I noticed better handling and a firmer steering after the instal which I assume is do to swapping the stock crossmember out for a 1/4" steel cradle!

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about, thanks for the photos, wish I had them 5 weeks ago. :)

[Omelet]

^^^ I was waiting for you to post up man!!

Question- didnt you take measurements before you cut the crossmember and found that nothing moved at all once it was cut out? I remember seeing some pictures with the crossmember removed.

In other words, there wasn't any residual stress in that area so it didn't need to be braced before you cut it...

Yes I did measure before and after and it was fine. Before I cut I had a fab buddy check it out to see if I would have to brace it before cutting like TRZ did. He said that although it wouldn't hurt, he did see it being necessary because there was enough support from the sub-frame and radiator support.




That is EXACTLY what I am talking about, thanks for the photos, wish I had them 5 weeks ago. :)

Sorry Bud, I did send you the link to my build on JF when we were talking on FB didn't I?

[LWM]

Sorry Bud, I did send you the link to my build on JF when we were talking on FB didn't I?

You might have, I have so many irons in the fire I might have missed it or forgot I saw it. No worries.

[Omelet]

Oh ya, and as you can see I pushed the fairlead out a couple of inches to meet up with the stock bumper cover. So you can even build a bumper that is shallower than the stock one for greater approach angles. That would make for a great wheeling bumper!

[LWM]

Oh ya, and as you can see I pushed the fairlead out a couple of inches to meet up with the stock bumper cover. So you can even build a bumper that is shallower than the stock one for greater approach angles. That would make for a great wheeling bumper!

Are the mounts I see to the sides for the Matrix?

[Matt]

In conclusion: Lets cut that center section so we can have a sick bumper that doesn't stick out 3 feet in the front :cool:

[Omelet]

Are the mounts I see to the sides for the Matrix?

Yes! I wanted to allow the Matrix to still be used.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/2d62e9d0-1.jpg

This way I still have shackle and light mounts!

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/4ad2f506-1.jpg

[pjmjr508]

Love the way the hidden winch looks

[LWM]

Yes! I wanted to allow the Matrix to still be used.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/2d62e9d0-1.jpg

This way I still have shackle and light mounts!

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2011/12/4ad2f506-1.jpg

I need to get my hand on one of those so I can try to make the bumper compatible with that system if possible.

[hoaxci5]

I need to get my hand on one of those so I can try to make the bumper compatible with that system if possible.

It just mounts to the same spots as the factory tow hooks doesn't it?

[Omelet]

Yes but the Matrix rides up right in front and over the bumper. I think that is his concern.

[Sal-XK]

I need to get my hand on one of those so I can try to make the bumper compatible with that system if possible.

I don't think that would be necessary I mean if I had a steel bumper why would I need to get the matrix?

[Omelet]

Not necessary for a full steel bumper, but if he made hidden winch cradles like mine it would be :D

[Sal-XK]

Not necessary for a full steel bumper, but if he made hidden winch cradles like mine it would be :D

Ahh didn't even think of that good point

[WanderingTs]

I agree with Neil and his points about liability and changing the crumple zones, how that affects your and others safety etc. He can say with much more knowledge and skill those points I had only half formed.

I would still vote no I would not cut mine. That said, here is why I think my opinion (and maybe others in my situation) may not be relevant enough for you to consider -

I have my rig armored pretty well. It is armored better than any other rig I have previously owned, and I know my limits. I mostly wheel with the family, often with my young son, and primarily as a way to support my other loves - hunting, fishing, and camping. My Jeep as it sits now, with factory bumpers, 4X skids, and a Matrix system, fits my needs. I will never be sinking my Jeep into the mud as deep as I can simply to see if I can get it yanked out. Now if there is good hunting grounds past that mud puddle.......... The point being, I am unlikely to buy ANY replacement bumper one way or the other.

Initially my point in the other thread was to try to help Jon look at this from a marketing standpoint. The bigger your market, the more of the bumpers you can sell, the more money you make. I think I was wrong in this initial assessment. After further thought, I think people like me, who would not be interested in cutting the frame, are less likely to purchase ANY bumper replacement with or without the cutting. Therefore it may be smarter to work on the concept of, "Those who are willing to put forth the money to buy a replacement bumper, will most likely be willing to put forth a little more to get the quailty they are looking for." Simply stated, if you have to charge a $100 more per unit (a figure I admittedly am just inventing) to make the same money, since you will sell a few less, may be a better plan than trying to go less expensive to a wider market.

There are already several options for those of us who are not willing to cut our rigs. This is evidenced in this thread as well as just looking at what other have on their rigs currently. Why compete with those already established products? I may have considered a bumper purchase prior to purchasing the Matrix, but now that I have made that investment, I will most likely not. I think you may be much smarter to focus on the underserved hardcore market, charge a little more if you need to, and give them what they want and can't get elsewhere.

So while I still vote NO I would not want to cut mine, I also vote YES make the version that requires the frame cutting.

[WanderingTs]

A nod to those smarter and faster than me -

After getting back further into the "new posts" I see Matt already made some of my points above in the old locked thread. So I echo his points also.

[Sal-XK]

@WanderingTs (http://www.theultimatejeep.com/member.php/8-WanderingTs) That was a well thought out and honest response and makes a lot of sense.