View Full Version : more lift to the superlift
stites-xk
02-20-2012, 04:03 PM
I'm trying to find a good way off adding an additional 1.5 in to the front and 1 inch to the rear. So if you have any ideas that would be great
Fondy
02-20-2012, 09:04 PM
Old Man Emu medium duty springs and struts on the front, and the extra long load levelling shocks in the rear should do it.
stites-xk
02-20-2012, 09:19 PM
Thanks I will definitely look in to it.
AJeepZJ
02-22-2012, 07:20 AM
Old Man Emu medium duty springs and struts on the front, and the extra long load levelling shocks in the rear should do it.
This is exactly what I planned on doing.. Keeping my OME set up and stuffing a SL under it... at least for the front anyway. For the back, yeah I was just going to go with 6" coils.
You'll want to add some JBA upper control arms as well.
You could also get a set of custom length KING coilovers for the front.... that would get rid of the large spacer+strut setup and also allow you to fine tune the height (adjust for added accessories like a winch, etc). Last I checked they were around $1700 for the set. I think Jon (steel armadillo) was looking into becoming a KING distributor...
I've tried this. I tried installing OME med-duty springs after I loaded up the front end with a winch and bumper (back when Ross was making them). We couldn't even get the passenger side strut back in the Jeep. The effective lift ended up at about 8" as best as we could guess and though the driver side did install, it barely compressed under the weight of the jeep. I subsequently sold the OME springs to Tom (Phunkeydude) who tried to install them with exactly the same results. He removed them, cut off a full coil (as I recall), reinstalled them and had the lift he was looking for - about 6". He did complain the ride was a little stiff, though. I eventually had custom coils made by Deaver Suspension which worked perfectly, give a great ride and they're on my XK still. But I just wanted to let you know - putting OME springs on a 4" SL did not work for either Phunkeydude or me.
Here is the writeup I did on this modification (other forum) in case anyone else is interested in custom coils (based on the weight of your jeep + accessories)...
I have the 4" Superlift kit which has been great - zero problems. Once I added the GL4x4 winch bumper and a winch (about 200 pounds total), the front coils began to beg for mercy. I had a noticeable reduction in ground clearance with the front end, especially during steep descents when the weight would transfer forward. My original solution was to order a pair of 2-3" Old Man Emu coils to boost the front end back up. During the installation, it was discovered the new springs didn't work with the geometry of the Superlift kit and it boosted the front end an additional 4". Essentially, the front suspension was at full downward extension when sitting under the Jeep's weight. Phunkeydude experienced the exact same situation after he bought those springs from me :) What we discovered was a coil needed to be cut off the OME springs, then the front end went together much better. Far as I know, he's happy with the springs now. The side effect of cutting a coil off a coil spring is you raise the spring rate, as there is now less material to take a given load. My goal was to get 2" of additional lift while keeping close to the stock spring rate (I liked the cadillac ride). I looked around for a spring fabricator and was eventually led to Deaver Suspension in Santa Ana, CA. I purchased a brand new OEM XK front coil spring (code SGZ, I think) from a dealer in Boulder, CO. I sent the spring to Deaver and asked them to exactly match the top and bottom of the spring so it would fit into the strut perfectly, and I told them I wanted a similar spring rate, but with the 2" of lift at the hub. They returned a pair of springs that looked identical to the stock spring except for slightly thicker wire (load carrying) and one more coil (to bring the spring rate back down).
OEM spring on the right, Deaver spring on the left...
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_03741-1.jpg
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_03751-1.jpg
The installed product brought the front end back up 2.25", exactly what I was hoping for. The ride is very close to stock, maybe just a touch stiffer.
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_0366-1.jpg
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_0367-1.jpg
The angles of the CV shafts, A-arms and balljoints all appear to be very similar to anyone running a 2" spacer lift.
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_0368-1.jpg
Here's the upper control arm/balljoint angle before:
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_03781-1.jpg
And after the new springs:
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/02/DSC_0372-1.jpg
The upper balljoint angle looks a little dramatic compared to before, but because the coil is providing the lift and not a spacer, I still have the 'factory' downward travel limit provided by the strut. While I may upgrade to the custom UCA's for peace of mind, I'm not worried about the stockers. Several off-road trips have not brought up any issues.
One concern I had after receiving the new springs (with an additional coil) was whether or not the coils would bind on themselves during full compression. I flexed up the jeep yesterday enough to lift the rear tire off the ground, and there was still about 1/8" space between coils. No worries.
The blue bungee is holding the stabilizer bar up out of the way. It hasn't been connected since April - personal preference. The Jeep does lean over more than when it's connected but the ride is much better in my opinion. I'm not an aggressive driver so it's working for me.
So that's the experiment. The factory spring cost me about 80 bucks shipped. I then spent another 10 bucks to send it to California. The Deaver custom coils were just under 400 bucks, engineered, fabricated, and sent back to me (along with the OEM spring). If anyone is interested in contacting them, my guess is the cost would be something less than 400 bucks since they now have the specs on file. Though keep in mind these were engineered taking a winch and winch bumper into consideration. Without that weight, I'd probably be at about 6.5" of total front end lift. It's about 5.5" now. You can find Deaver Suspension on the web.
AJeepZJ
02-22-2012, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the info guys... After doing some more considerations, I've decided to just go with the SL as is... I just got these tires to a point where the engin can haul them around... Any more than 5" and I'll want to get bigger tires to fill that wheel well, lmao. So I'm going to peak at around 33x12.5 tires. 5" is just about all I'm going to need.
stites-xk
02-22-2012, 07:33 PM
Thanks kmax for the info that is good stuff to know and I'm with ajeepzj I just want 5 to 5.5 in the front. Hey kmak are you in Colorado if you are we should do some wheeling sometime.
El Cid
02-26-2012, 11:21 AM
The concept can be done with the right ingenuity. For instance, I know of someone who has experimented with an add-on to the standard SL that provides a positive range of adjustment to the front-end without new UCAs, coils, struts, etc. I don't think we ever maxed it out, but it was run for a long time with a one-inch adjustment without a problem. I don't want to share his specifics (in case he wants to pursue marketing it), and I'm sure there's more than one way to skin the cat anyway, if you know what I mean.
AJeepZJ
02-26-2012, 01:52 PM
The concept can be done with the right ingenuity. For instance, I know of someone who has experimented with an add-on to the standard SL that provides a positive range of adjustment to the front-end without new UCAs, coils, struts, etc. I don't think we ever maxed it out, but it was run for a long time with a one-inch adjustment without a problem. I don't want to share his specifics (in case he wants to pursue marketing it), and I'm sure there's more than one way to skin the cat anyway, if you know what I mean.
That is a horrible tease, Cid. lol.
I've tried this. I tried installing OME med-duty springs after I loaded up the front end with a winch and bumper (back when Ross was making them). We couldn't even get the passenger side strut back in the Jeep.
Bumping this thread back up since I'm planning on doing this in the foreseeable future. Though i'm concerned.... you had all those issues with med-duty springs?
I want to clarify something here:
OME rates the springs as light duty and medium duty for XK's, and the SAME springs as medium and heavy duty for WK's. We (onlline XK/WK community) generally refer to the OME springs in terms of the WK designations of medium and heavy duty.
Thus my question: Did you have issues with the XK medium duty springs, which are actually the WK heavy duty springs?
07JeepXK
09-06-2012, 06:58 PM
I don't think it matters either way. Your still going to have to chop a whole coil off. Remember he has the added weight of a steel bumper and winch that you don't.
I don't think it matters either way. Your still going to have to chop a whole could off. Remember he has the added weight of a steel bumper and winch that you don't.
It definitely matters if he had the WK MD springs since they're weaker than the XK MD springs.
Remember:
WK MD = XK LD
WK HD = XK MD
So when he said MD springs, if he meant XK MD springs then that's what I have and ill consider cutting a coil off. However if he meant WK MD springs, then those are weaker than what I have and ill therefore want to sell my springs and go with a different method of additional lift.
And thinking about it some more.... if he did have the XK MD springs (WK HD), which is what I currently have, I may consider swapping them out for the XK LD (WK MD) springs to mitigate some of the issues phunky had which may allow me to cut less than a full coil off.
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 11:05 AM
And thinking about it some more.... if he did have the XK MD springs (WK HD), which is what I currently have, I may consider swapping them out for the XK LD (WK MD) springs to mitigate some of the issues phunky had which may allow me to cut less than a full coil off.
What issues did phunkeydude have? I really don't see an issue what so ever. Order the superlift, keep your HD coils, cut off a coil, install and be sad cause my jeep is still bigger sitting on brand new 34 inch MT/R's. Bwhahaha
Pixelcodex
09-07-2012, 11:12 AM
And thinking about it some more.... if he did have the XK MD springs (WK HD), which is what I currently have, I may consider swapping them out for the XK LD (WK MD) springs to mitigate some of the issues phunky had which may allow me to cut less than a full coil off.
Are you talking Old Man Emu or stock springs? I was under the impression that OME springs were rated the same for both the XK and WK...
You're missing the part about the difference in coils, if my coils are stiffer I'll need to cut more off than phunky did.
His issue was the ride was stiffer from the cut coil .... hence why kmax had custom coils made. so, already starting with a higher spring rate + having to cut more coil off = even stiffer suspension. That's the issue. It all boils down to which OME spring they tried using..... hence my question
06JeepXKHEMI
09-07-2012, 11:57 AM
What issues did phunkeydude have? I really don't see an issue what so ever. Order the superlift, keep your HD coils, cut off a coil, install and be sad cause my jeep is still bigger sitting on brand new 34 inch MT/R's. Bwhahaha
Just let me get the 33's Ill chop up the XK for them, I do not care!!!
EDIT: Brain fart.... these part numbers are the REAR Springs
So just because i've been thinking about this and had a theory, I had to put some numbers to it and found something interesting.
OME992 = WK MD = XK LD = 13.6" free height, 7.2 coils, 240 lbf/in, 17mm wire
OME993 = WK HD = XK MD = 13.6" free height, 6.6 coils, 280 lbf/in, 18mm wire
OME992 with 1 coil removed:
11.7" free height, 6.2 coils, 280 lbf/in <---Note that this is like running the OME993 spring rate and 2" less pre-load in the assembly
OME993 with 1 coil removed:
11.5" free height, 5.6 coils, 330 lbf/in
Based on this, I think I'm going to try an OME992 with 1/2 coil removed:
12.7" free height, 6.7 coils, 260 lbf/in <---- This will give a spring rate in between the OME HD/MD springs, and an inch less preload in the assembly. So it should ride good, and if needed I can always cut another half coil off.
Note that free heights are estimations due to the fact that the top side of the coil closed/ground. But their relative differences to each other should be maintained for comparison purposes.
But still need to know whether kmax/phunk used the OME992 or OME993 spring. I have a feeling, based on the "stiff ride" comment that they cut down an OME993 spring and ended up with a 330 spring rate.
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 03:40 PM
My question is, how do you figure out the spring rate of a coil that has been cut down???
My question is, how do you figure out the spring rate of a coil that has been cut down???
Number of turns in the coil is one of the design parameters in a coil spring. If you know the spring rate and number of turns, you can calculate a given constant for that particular spring design which takes into account wire diameter, coil diameter and shear modulus. Once you know that constant (C) then spring rate k = C/N where N is the number of turns in the coil.
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 03:54 PM
And that my friend is why I joined the Army after high school!!!
criket
09-07-2012, 05:21 PM
^LOL. Well said.
Just get some custom coilovers made for the front and rear and abuse the crap out of it, LOL.
valpacer
09-07-2012, 05:42 PM
I must admit i am not a fan of cut coils, but I also have access to getting custom coils made easily. The increase in spring rate can get harsh.
I know Omelet cut the top coil off his OME HD and seems happy.
The other thing to look at is the SL incorporates a preload spacer, which goes inside the strut assembly, and is usually good for around 1/2-3/4" (usually closer to 3/4) lift on the standard coil alone. I left these out so we could use the same length spring i previously had and not end up over 7" of lift. This keeps a large amount of flex and rebound abaility. Mine has settled at around 6.25" in the front, and the coils on a normal lift would be good for around 2.75" lift with the heavy bar, winch and batteries etc. If you could simulate the weight you will run on the front, and get a measurement for your current coils then add 3.5" you will be pretty close to your new lift height. Then go from there and try to work out a new spring, or trim down a lower rated coil.
From memory my front coils are 300 rated and 19mm, which gives you an idea on my Jeeps weight... :D And the struts are valved 25% over the OME.
^LOL. Well said.
Just get some custom coilovers made for the front and rear and abuse the crap out of it, LOL.
LOL
Coilovers are the long-term plan. Once i have the SL and can take some more accurate measurements i'll start spec'ing out a good set of coilovers; but in the mean time i'll have to come up with a configuration to run with that huge strut spacer, ugh.
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 05:50 PM
What struts are you using valpacer?
Thanks for the info Dave!
And yeah, i was already planning on leaving that pre-load spacer out.
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 05:52 PM
LOL
Coilovers are the long-term plan. Once i have the SL and can take some more accurate measurements i'll start spec'ing out a good set of coilovers; but in the mean time i'll have to come up with a configuration to run with that huge strut spacer, ugh.
I won't be running the strut spacer! Got bigger plans
I won't be running the strut spacer! Got bigger plans
You know.... this really is turning into the "Cold War" of TUJ.... Adam Vs Matt :p
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 06:37 PM
But Adam always wins. Ask the gf she will tell you. Maybe I'll just change my plans and thown Dana 60s under the XK
Oh yeah? Ask the wife... Matt's ALWAYS right :p
You won't put D60's under there (go ahead, make me wrong for the 1st time lol)
valpacer
09-07-2012, 06:53 PM
What struts are you using valpacer?
CRDSTU from Murchison Products :D
They are from the same factory as OME, just custom valved to Stu's requirements. THe springs are from Kings again to custom specs
07JeepXK
09-07-2012, 07:26 PM
Oh yeah? Ask the wife... Matt's ALWAYS right :p
You won't put D60's under there (go ahead, make me wrong for the 1st time lol)
I'll do it only if you do it afterwards!! Some JK Dana 60s would work nice
criket
09-08-2012, 06:46 PM
Have any of you looked at the prices of RockJock's for the JK? The front is around 6K..just for the front!!!! How do these JK owners afford crap like that?!?!
Obviously they are not like me that has a wife who carries the balls around in her purse (I'll admit, I'm whooped :)
Core XK
09-09-2012, 01:34 PM
Lmao at cricket.....dude dont feel bad I have my xk stuff shipped to matts so my fiance wont find out LOL
Matt - going back a few posts...
As I recall I had the OME992 springs, but I think I can dig up the paperwork and find out for sure.
I would appreciate that. Thanks! :)
Damnit i'm an idiot. The previous post with spring specs was the REAR springs (DOH!).
OME990 = WK MD = XK LD = 14.56" free height , 8.9 coils, 530 lbf/in, 18mm wire
OME991 = WK HD = XK MD = 14.37" free height, 8.9 coils, 630 lbf/in, 19mm wire
OE Spring rate = 440 lbf/in
OME990 with 1 coil removed:
12.92" free height, 7.9 coils, 600 lbf/in
OME991 with 1 coil removed:
12.76" free height, 7.9 coils, 710 lbf/in
According to Phunkydude's garage thread, he had the OME991's.... which makes sense why the ride sucked with 1 coil removed! 710 lbf/in spring rate :eek: My OME HD are firm enough at 630...
So, keeping with the theme, I think im going to try the OME990's unless kmax confirms that phunky's garage thread is wrong and they used the OME990s.
http://www.jeepcommander.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4930
http://www.jeepcommander.com/forums/showpost.php?p=117944&postcount=33
I'll just have to decide how much I want to cut off. With the 5.7L XK, I believe the lift achieved from the OME990 springs is under 2", so I may try cutting 1/2 coil off instead (which also should account for the preload spacer that comes with the superlift):
OME990 with 1/2 coil removed:
13.74" free height, 8.4 coils, 560 lbf/in
Or maybe intall the OME990s uncut to get a baseline to work with first. That's what i'll probably end up doing...
Sal-XK
09-16-2012, 06:21 AM
Damnit i'm an idiot.
At least we agree on something! :D
At least we agree on something! :D
https://theultimatejeep.com/notfound.png
OK... took some measurements and did some estimations to get a better idea of what each cut spring will be like.
Assumptions:
5500lb vehicle weight, 45/55 distribution = ~1240 lb on each front tire
Vehicle weight reacted @19" from LCA pivot, Spring force @ 9.5" from LCA pivot = 2480 lbf per strut assembly
All forces at 90 degree angles (ok since this is just comparative purposes)
Spring height in strut assembly = 11.75"
With this, I decided to look at how much the strut assembly will compress given the different coil springs. Using the OME991 with 1 coil cut as a baseline I then can estimate how the different OME990 configurations will change the ride height as it relates to phunkydude's XK.
Strut assembly compression = D
OME991 with 1 Coil Cut:
Spring height = 12.76"
K = 710 lbf/in
D = 2.48"
Conclusion = To bolt the suspension back together, the strut needs to compress ~1.5" IIRC. So I think the following estimates are probably close since this would've given phunkydude about 2" wheel down travel from his static ride height.
OME990 un-cut:
Spring height = 14.56"
K = 530 lbf/in
D = 1.87"
Conclusion = an un-cut 990 spring will be worse than the 991 with a cut coil
OME990 with 1/2 Coil Cut:
Spring height = 13.74"
K = 560 lbf/in
D = 2.44"
Conclusion = This should give an equivalent ride height to phunkydude's, not including differences in weight from accessories, but with a much lower spring rate that will help ride quality.
OME990 with 1 Coil Cut:
Spring height = 12.92"
K = 600 lbf/in
D = 2.96"
Conclusion = This should give approximately 1" lower static ride height than phunkydude's (again not including accessory weight difference), and with a spring rate thats in-between the OME options, but closer to the 991s
Since these are just rough estimates and I dont know the difference in weight between my vehicle and phunky's, I'll probably try cutting 1/2 coil off OME990's to get my own baseline and then work from there.
Hey Matt -
I couldn't find paperwork indicating the OME springs I had purchased. I probably included it in the box I sent to Tom (Phunkeydude) when he bought those OME springs from me. If his garage thread says 991's, I would believe that.
Sounds good. Looks like there's definitely some merit to trying the same method with the 990s. :)
lekmedm
09-22-2012, 07:51 PM
Hey Matt -
I couldn't find paperwork indicating the OME springs I had purchased. I probably included it in the box I sent to Tom (Phunkeydude) when he bought those OME springs from me. If his garage thread says 991's, I would believe that.
What did you pay for your custom coils, if I may ask.
cmdr jim
09-25-2012, 06:40 AM
Anyone with the Superlift 4" lift, what is the actual length of the upper strut spacers?
And the distance the lower control arm pivot points are lowered with the kit?
cmdr jim
09-28-2012, 06:28 AM
LCU pivot points 3" lower, Strut Spacer 4" length.
07JeepXK
09-28-2012, 02:03 PM
Yup and that's why the superlift provides more lift up front than the BDS
What did you pay for your custom coils, if I may ask.
lekmedm - They ran me about 400 bucks. I also had ordered a brand new original equipment coil from a local dealer so I could send it to Deaver to match it dimensionally. That ran me another 85 bucks (and I still have it - not much you can do with one coil). But it was worth it to me since the custom springs installed without a single issue. So that modification totaled around 500 dollars, but I had legitimate lift, with good down-travel to limits that didn't trash the balljoints.
oleblue27
12-05-2012, 03:10 PM
I know you said it cant be done.. but I talked to txbajacommander personally and he told me that he has the OME struts and springs up front along with the Superlift spacer. He told me he didnt have to do any cutting to the springs. I'm wanting to do the same thing he did... I have the same year and same engine commander that he has, and i'm also 2wd. My question is.. which springs would I be better off going with to do this? the XK light duty or XK medium duty?
What springs did txbajacommander use?
Based on Kmax and Phunkydude, as well as Omelet on JF (all of whom who have done this), I wouldnt even attempt it with the OME HD (XK medium duty) springs. So if you have a choice, give the OME MD (XK light duty) springs a try and let us know how it works out for ya.
That'll help me figure out how much of a coil I want to cut off as well :D
oleblue27
12-05-2012, 03:22 PM
What springs did txbajacommander use?
Based on Kmax and Phunkydude, as well as Omelet on JF (all of whom who have done this), I wouldnt even attempt it with the OME HD (XK medium duty) springs. So if you have a choice, give the OME MD (XK light duty) springs a try and let us know how it works out for ya.
That'll help me figure out how much of a coil I want to cut off as well :D
Not sure lol, he hasnt messaged me back about that yet. I dont have any extra weight up front except for the grille guard i might be getting so yeah. I'll go with the MD springs and try that. What would you guys reccomend for UCA's? I have my sights set on JBA's cause I dont want to deal with RRO customer service especially around christmas time...
JBA
Might want to wait until the new arms are done, especially with the setup you're planning on running.
oleblue27
12-05-2012, 03:27 PM
JBA
Might want to wait until the new arms are done, especially with the setup you're planning on running.
Are the new ones going to be made to use with stock or OME springs? I'd love to wait, but I'm planning on getting them for Christmas.. lol.
They're meant to be used with a 2" OME lift. His current arms will work as well, the new ones will help prevent the spindle hitting the strut when the suspension droops.
oleblue27
12-05-2012, 03:30 PM
They're meant to be used with a 2" OME lift. His current arms will work as well, the new ones will help prevent the spindle hitting the strut when the suspension droops.
Any idea of when they will be released?
I would imagine the near future. He's making a production unit for Budasac to install for a final time and I'd guess they'll be on his site shortly after that's done.
oleblue27
12-05-2012, 03:35 PM
I would imagine the near future. He's making a production unit for Budasac to install for a final time and I'd guess they'll be on his site shortly after that's done.
Preciate it man. I just emailed them and asked them if they knew when they will be on the site.
stites-xk
12-05-2012, 03:57 PM
What springs did txbajacommander use?
Based on Kmax and Phunkydude, as well as Omelet on JF (all of whom who have done this), I wouldnt even attempt it with the OME HD (XK medium duty) springs. So if you have a choice, give the OME MD (XK light duty) springs a try and let us know how it works out for ya.
That'll help me figure out how much of a coil I want to cut off as well :D
I know with the XK medium duty springs i had to cut one coil off to get them to work and even then it was a PITA to do!
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