Rack and pinion needs drop on Superlift

[TrialByFire]

After breaking two tie rods (and bending a third) in the last year or so I have discovered that the Superlift with AEV wheel combo requires the RPS assembly dropped to avoid interference. I checked the install instructions for the Superlift and they don't say anything about remounting the RPS but it looks to me as if I can drop it a couple of inches by simply drilling two new mounting holes. That should be enough for the tie rods to clear the AEV wheels under all conditions--as well as reducing the steering angles of the tie rods. The RPS assembly is still in its stock mounting position and with the 4" drop brackets installed with the Superlift, the knuckles are now 4" below the stock position. Off-road when a wheel drops and turned to lock, the tie rod will bend, weaken, and eventually break!

I am going to get a new RPS assembly on order as the current one is on its last legs. Once I pull the skid plates off I'll know if I can drop the assembly (and by how much).

[Sal-XK]

If you can do it some pics would be great!

[Matt]

You may be putting yourself at risk of excessive bump-steer if you lower the rack. The tie rods must be at the same angle as the control arms so they follow the same arc through suspension travel. If you lower the rack to have flatter tie rod angles relative to the control arm angles, you'll drastically change the toe angle as the suspension cycles.

do you have any current pictures of your front suspension components? I'd be amazed if they're not at the same angles... If the tie rods are at a steeper angle then the control arms, then there is benefit to lowering them for that reason as well.

[Sal-XK]

Is that only an issue with the AEV wheels? now I'm confused LOL

[07JeepXK]

The superlift steering knuckles were designed to accommodate for the drop down brackets and bring the tie rods back to stock geometry and keep the tie rods and lower control arm parallel. You are the only one I know that is having this problem. Maybe you should just invest in a different set of wheels. Maybe some 18s so the wheels clear the tie rod ends.

[stites-xk]

I haven't had any problems yet with stock wheels and spaces other than my hole rack is going bad.

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[07JeepXK]

When you say your rack is going bad, what is it doing that makes you say it's going bad. I've been lifted for 4 years now and running 33s and dont seem to have any problems with my rack yet.

[stites-xk]

When you say your rack is going bad, what is it doing that makes you say it's going bad. I've been lifted for 4 years now and running 33s and dont seem to have any problems with my rack yet.

I've replaced my tie rods and I still get a really bad clunk when I turn the wheel so I crawled underneath the jeep and pushed up on the driver side tie rod boot and I can feel the clunk.

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[Omelet]

Here's a pic showing the difference between OEM and SL. You can see how much longer the UCA mount is as well and the tie rod mount.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/06/35412d93-1.jpg


And what I have found is the racks are hit and miss. Some seem to give up quite easily while others are more robust. It also greatly depends on how the Jeep is driven. If you spend time off road, particularly more difficult trails where you max out the travel and take hard hits, then it probably won't live as long. But if you really ever wheel it or stick to easier trail the rack will probably last longer. I am sure weight also has a big role to play!

[07JeepXK]

I've replaced my tie rods and I still get a really bad clunk when I turn the wheel so I crawled underneath the jeep and pushed up on the driver side tie rod boot and I can feel the clunk.

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Oh, I see what you are saying. I was getting a bad clunk from the drivers side this past winter and replaced the drivers side inner and outer tie rod and it went away for a few weeks. Then I started hearing it again but its very slight now and only happens when I take off hard from a red light. I can also feel slight play where the inner tie rod screws into the rack underneith the boot. No big deal. Im going to drive it until it has to be replaced. The alignment is dead on and I havent noticed anything bad resulting from that slight clunk. Im almost at 107,000 miles on the stock rack running 33's.

[stites-xk]

Oh, I see what you are saying. I was getting a bad clunk from the drivers side this past winter and replaced the drivers side inner and outer tie rod and it went away for a few weeks. Then I started hearing it again but its very slight now and only happens when I take off hard from a red light. I can also feel slight play where the inner tie rod screws into the rack underneith the boot. No big deal. Im going to drive it until it has to be replaced. The alignment is dead on and I havent noticed anything bad resulting from that slight clunk. Im almost at 107,000 miles on the stock rack running 33's.

Mines really bad loud clunks taking off and turning but I wheel my xk really hard. No easy trails for me. I like the challenge.

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[07JeepXK]

Same here. I don't like easy boring trails. Blues and a few blacks for me when I visit Rausch Creek. That's what they made skid plates for!

[Matt]

Are you going to RC this weekend?

[07JeepXK]

Are you going to RC this weekend?

This weekend isnt looking to promising. My little brother just got the new engine in the TJ and on the road again Saturday. All of his buddies are slowly backing out at the last minute. The one guy just installed a 6 inch lift and 3 inch body on his Titan but cant get tires in time and is rockin bald 33's that are way to small for the amount of lift he has. Im going to talk to my brother and find out whats going on. The weekend of the 15-17 looks like a better weekend.

[stites-xk]

If i lived closer i would be there, but can't take any time off work right now:(

[Matt]

…The weekend of the 15-17 looks like a better weekend.

Well, just a reminder ill be there on the 17th. Still unknown who's coming with me so not positive on the level of trails.... but RC is set up nicely to accommodate all levels without drastically splitting up.

[TrialByFire]

The superlift steering knuckles were designed to accommodate for the drop down brackets and bring the tie rods back to stock geometry and keep the tie rods and lower control arm parallel. You are the only one I know that is having this problem. Maybe you should just invest in a different set of wheels. Maybe some 18s so the wheels clear the tie rod ends.

I would love to get a new set of wheels (beadlocks?) as I have had nothing but problems with the Pintlers, but the wife is starting to limit my 'investment' in the XK.:(
I suppose I could go back to the 1/4" wheel spacers (which fixed the interference problem) but the studs aren't really long enough for that and Discount Tire won't touch them. I still don't understand why the AEV wheel and SL combo rubs when the two companies worked together on the Superlift!

I can see from the photos that the SL knuckles have the same attachment position for the tie rod and understand the reasoning why the geometry should not have changed. The UCA is mounted on the stock attachment holes but the LCA was dropped 4". The JBA UCAs do appear to drop the ball joint below where the OEM ball joint would be positioned but I'm not sure how much (1"?). The SL knuckles don't appear to be 4" longer than the OEM. Is it?

[TrialByFire]

Oh, I see what you are saying. I was getting a bad clunk from the drivers side this past winter and replaced the drivers side inner and outer tie rod and it went away for a few weeks. Then I started hearing it again but its very slight now and only happens when I take off hard from a red light. I can also feel slight play where the inner tie rod screws into the rack underneith the boot. No big deal. Im going to drive it until it has to be replaced. The alignment is dead on and I havent noticed anything bad resulting from that slight clunk. Im almost at 107,000 miles on the stock rack running 33's.

I just checked and the Cardone rack and pinion assembly is still not available from either O'Reilly or NAPA. It looks like the only option for an replacement is Mopar-Wholesale at about $650. Ouch! I think I will try to rebuild mine if I can.

[stites-xk]

I just checked and the Cardone rack and pinion assembly is still not available from either O'Reilly or NAPA. It looks like the only option for an replacement is Mopar-Wholesale at about $650. Ouch! I think I will try to rebuild mine if I can.

Check rock auto.com out they might have one. a rebuild one at least

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[TrialByFire]

Check rock auto.com out they might have one. a rebuild one at least

They do list an ATSCO part in stock. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

[Omelet]

I can see from the photos that the SL knuckles have the same attachment position for the tie rod and understand the reasoning why the geometry should not have changed. The UCA is mounted on the stock attachment holes but the LCA was dropped 4". The JBA UCAs do appear to drop the ball joint below where the OEM ball joint would be positioned but I'm not sure how much (1"?). The SL knuckles don't appear to be 4" longer than the OEM. Is it?

You are looking at it wrong. I guess I should have lines up the LCA and unit bearing location instead. If you look at the location between where the unit bearing/axle would be and the tie rod mount on the OEM one compared to the SL, you will see they moved the tie rod mount up a few inches. They also extended the mounting location for the UCA. Since they dropped the diff and LCA mounts on the Jeep they had to extend the length between the upper and lower control arm mounts to match the new suspension geometry. Since the rack did not move they raised the tie rod mount up farther on the spindle to realign the steering with the new suspension geometry. So even though the rack was not lowered, the steering is still aligned because of the new spindles. Moving the rack would not be a fix but only serve to screw up the geometry. Does that make sense? It does in my head at least :D

[07JeepXK]

Well, just a reminder ill be there on the 17th. Still unknown who's coming with me so not positive on the level of trails.... but RC is set up nicely to accommodate all levels without drastically splitting up.


Yea your right. That's why I love Rausch Creek! Well we might be meeting on the 17th....

[07JeepXK]

You are looking at it wrong. I guess I should have lines up the LCA and unit bearing location instead. If you look at the location between where the unit bearing/axle would be and the tie rod mount on the OEM one compared to the SL, you will see they moved the tie rod mount up a few inches. They also extended the mounting location for the UCA. Since they dropped the diff and LCA mounts on the Jeep they had to extend the length between the upper and lower control arm mounts to match the new suspension geometry. Since the rack did not move they raised the tie rod mount up farther on the spindle to realign the steering with the new suspension geometry. So even though the rack was not lowered, the steering is still aligned because of the new spindles. Moving the rack would not be a fix but only serve to screw up the geometry. Does that make sense? It does in my head at least :D

Exactly... What he said!

[Matt]

lmao that is a wild explanation of what i was eluding to in my original post.... im cracking up that i can a) understand it and b) understand how it sounds like an alien language to some!

[Omelet]

Haha! Sorry sometimes I explain and word things in a weird way. My English teachers always enjoyed it :D Me and words aren't so goodly!!!

[TrialByFire]

Haha! Sorry sometimes I explain and word things in a weird way. My English teachers always enjoyed it :D Me and words aren't so goodly!!!

No. It's clear to me. The question then is whether I have interference problems because of the JBA UCA. Does it drop the knuckle more/less than the OEM UCA or does it just have a better angle on the ball joint?
Maybe that is why AEV and Superlift don't see the rubbing on the wheel or bent tie rods. There must be something unique about my setup that is causing the interference.

[Omelet]

Well if AEV doesn't have the problem running their wheels and lift normally then I would have to guess it is the UCAs that are screwing you. If you still have an OEM arm sitting around you could swap it in on one side and go to full drop then see if the problem remains.

[Matt]

Are you running additional lift in addition to the SL? I recall another member having issues with JBA arms and the SL..... JBA told him he needs to add a spacer up front because their arms are designed for 2" lifts.

Although the UCA is a floating link that does not impact ride height or the LCA/tie-rod/CV angles, I could see it causing issues. Not sure how exactly that correlates to tie rod interference since both the tie rod and wheel are bolted to the knuckle, so their relationship to one another shouldn't be affected. But if that's the only difference, and if you're only running the SL without any additional lift, then I agree with the above- try some OEM arms to see if that helps.

[07JeepXK]

No. It's clear to me. The question then is whether I have interference problems because of the JBA UCA. Does it drop the knuckle more/less than the OEM UCA or does it just have a better angle on the ball joint?
Maybe that is why AEV and Superlift don't see the rubbing on the wheel or bent tie rods. There must be something unique about my setup that is causing the interference.

If It makes you feel any better, after I installed my JBA UCA's my front end measures between 1/4 - 1/2 inch higher. I wonder if it is somehow pushing down on the steering knuckle/LCA causing more lift?

[07JeepXK]

Are you running additional lift in addition to the SL? I recall another member having issues with JBA arms and the SL..... JBA told him he needs to add a spacer up front because their arms are designed for 2" lifts.

Although the UCA is a floating link that does not impact ride height or the LCA/tie-rod/CV angles, I could see it causing issues. Not sure how exactly that correlates to tie rod interference since both the tie rod and wheel are bolted to the knuckle, so their relationship to one another shouldn't be affected. But if that's the only difference, and if you're only running the SL without any additional lift, then I agree with the above- try some OEM arms to see if that helps.


I think if he added more lift it would make his issue with the tie rods worse because of the added angle.

[Matt]

That's true, but at the same time I'm thinking due to the geometry they're designed to, adding more lift will draw in the bottom of the knuckle and push out the top of the knuckle, pivoting the knuckle about the tie rod (which sets the camber further within spec, assuming the camber is on the edge or slightly out of spec now) which would give more clearance between the tie rod and wheel edge.

[criket]

Looks like someone needs to do a CAD Drawing of the front end with both UCA's and see how the motion flows.

[TrialByFire]

I just have the 4" SL and JBA UCAs with no spacers or additional lift. Plus, I verified that the Pintlers were the ones for the XK (25mm offset?) and not the JK ones (10mm offset).

That SFA conversion is sounding better and better.:rolleyes:

[Matt]

The JK Pintlers would actually be better. Assuming their posted offsets are correct (because their Xk backspace is calculated wrong), the XK version would have 5.75" backspace and the JK version would have 5.15" backspace..... 5.75" is pretty far into the wheel well and would cause more interference with the tie rod.

Have you tried measuring the backspace? If its really 5.3" then they have +14mm offset, not +25.

[TrialByFire]

Is the wheel width measured from the inside of the beads?

[Matt]

Yup
Edit: and the backspace is measured to the outside.

[Matt]

There's a sticky at the top of the wheel/tire forum where I posted a downloaded excel sheet that I made; it converts offset to backspace, And back, and even lets you put in two different wheel specs to compare.

[stites-xk]

Do you guys think I will have a problem like this if I keep my current setup stock rims with spacers then get the ome front set up minus a coil on the front springs and get RRO UCA?

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[Matt]

Probably not.... you have 1.5" spacers right? That should give you a lot of clearance around the tierod. The XK pintlers, if they are 25mm offset are like running stock wheels with 1/4" spacers in terms of the inner wheel edge location.

[07JeepXK]

Are you sure the back spacing for the XK pintlers is 5.75???

[stites-xk]

Probably not.... you have 1.5" spacers right? That should give you a lot of clearance around the tierod. The XK pintlers, if they are 25mm offset are like running stock wheels with 1/4" spacers in terms of the inner wheel edge location.

I do have the 1.5" spacers. Thanks for the input I'm going to order the stuff tonight or tomorrow along with a new rack.

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[Matt]

Are you sure the back spacing for the XK pintlers is 5.75???

If they're 8.5" wide and +25mm offset, yes. So they either have the wrong width, backspace or offset posted on their site.

And 5.75" backspace could cause the interference referenced in this thread, which makes me believe they have the wrong backspace posted.

[Matt]

An 8.5 wheel has a centerline (0mm offset) at 4.75" backspace. Add 25mm offset, which is ~1" and that changes the backspace to 5.75".

[Matt]

Just a quick note.... if that is indeed the root cause and the wheels are 5.75" backspace as opposed to the 5.3" backspace they [seemingly incorrectly] claim, you probably have grounds to have them swap out the wheels for the JK series which *should* work better.

Superlift clearly states in their application notes:

New wheel with maximum backspacing of 5.5" is required for installation. Factory spare can be used as a temporary spare in emergency situations.

[07JeepXK]

They are definitely 17x8.5 inch wheels. I talked to AEV a while back because I noticed what they had posted online was incorrect. Whatever they posted for the offset didnt mathmatically add up to what they posted for the back spacing. If I recall corectly they said the offset was correct and they posted the wrong back spacing. I havent been on their website to see what its listed as lately. Ill check now.

EDIT: The website says +25 offset and 5.3 inches of back spacing. Obvioulsy they havent corrected it. Maybe next time trailbyfire has a wheel off he can just measure it. Or did he do that already and i missed it.

[Matt]

They still claim 8.5" wide, +25mm offset and 5.3" backspace: http://www.aev-conversions.com/shop/shop-by-category/wheels/wk-xk-pintler-wheels-non-beadlock.html

I remember this came up a while ago because someone on JF was arguing with me, they claimed I didn't know what offset and backspace were because "according to AEV...." lol you fill in the rest

[07JeepXK]

That's funny cause AEV admitted their website was incorrect.

[TrialByFire]

An 8.5 wheel has a centerline (0mm offset) at 4.75" backspace. Add 25mm offset, which is ~1" and that changes the backspace to 5.75".

Wouldn't the centerline of an 8.5" wheel be at 4.25"--not 4.75"?

[TrialByFire]

Maybe next time trailbyfire has a wheel off he can just measure it. Or did he do that already and i missed it.

I did measure it (crudely) at one time but it is difficult to get an accurate measurement when the tire is mounted. All I could determine was that the offset was closer to 25mm than it was to 10mm.

[Matt]

Wouldn't the centerline of an 8.5" wheel be at 4.25"--not 4.75"?

No because backspace is an external measurement and width is internal.

[07JeepXK]

Wouldn't the centerline of an 8.5" wheel be at 4.25"--not 4.75"?

No. Because a wheel that is 8.5 inches wide is really 9.5 inches total width. The 8.5 is measured from the inside (bead to bead). The total width of the wheel is from outside of the bead but they dont advertise that number because its the inside measurement is what matters when mounting a tire.

[TrialByFire]

No because backspace is an external measurement and width is internal.

So the bead is 1/2" on each side? Ok, I get it now.

[Matt]

Yessir.

Any thoughts on what you're going to do?

[TrialByFire]

I have a spare outer tie rod that I can experiment with. I may look at how much grinding I need to do to clear the wheel, then try to weld some external reinforcement.

The reason I went with the AEV wheels was because they advertised them as compatible with the SL. It would be great if AEV would send me a set of five JK wheels!

[Matt]

The reason I went with the AEV wheels was because they advertised them as compatible with the SL. It would be great if AEV would send me a set of five JK wheels!

Its worth a shot IMO. Not only did they advertise the wheels as compatible with the SL kit, they also advertise an incorrect backspace where the actual backspace is too much per Superlifts own installation notes.... this interference causing tie rod damage is icing on the cake; if they have decent customer service they should at least try to make it right.... $.02

[07JeepXK]

I think the JK pintlers would look better on your XK as they will sit out farther.

[valpacer]

My Savegre's are the JK offset thankfully. Just went out and checked (its night or i'd get a pic for you) and on the rock in the front yard at full lock I have plenty of clearance.

Having said that i am now carrying spare inner and outer tie rods in my wheeling parts after talking to Coop :D.

[TrialByFire]

While it was up on the lift again this week, I took some measurements with full droop in the front and it looks like the maximum backspace we can live with is about 5". Any more than that and you risk bending tie rods. AEV has promised to reimburse me for the wheels (yea!) so I'm going to get some steel wheels with a 5" backspace that I won't have to worry about nicking up on the rocks.

[Matt]

So they acknowledged the error and are planning on reimbursing you? You'll have to let us know if they follow through.... if so, that's good to know they're owning up to their mistake.

[07JeepXK]

While it was up on the lift again this week, I took some measurements with full droop in the front and it looks like the maximum backspace we can live with is about 5". Any more than that and you risk bending tie rods. AEV has promised to reimburse me for the wheels (yea!) so I'm going to get some steel wheels with a 5" backspace that I won't have to worry about nicking up on the rocks.


What is the back spacing of your current wheels? I would try test fitting a wheel with 5" of back spacing before you order new wheels.

[Matt]

Based on AEV confirming the +25mm offset, he's currently running 5.75" backspace.
Test fitting is a good idea to be sure you'll clear.

[07JeepXK]

Based on AEV confirming the +25mm offset, he's currently running 5.75" backspace.
Test fitting is a good idea to be sure you'll clear.

If thats correct then he should clear fine with 5 inches of BS

[TrialByFire]

What is the back spacing of your current wheels? I would try test fitting a wheel with 5" of back spacing before you order new wheels.

The current backspacing is 5.7". While it was on the lift, I slid the wheel out about 3/4" (almost to the end of the studs) and it cleared easily at full droop.

I will see if Discount Tire has a wheel we can throw on it before I order a new set though--just to make sure.

[TrialByFire]

So they acknowledged the error and are planning on reimbursing you? You'll have to let us know if they follow through.... if so, that's good to know they're owning up to their mistake.

They followed through. I got a check for a full reimbursement on 5 rims!
Even though they blamed it on bad knuckes from Superlift, they stood behind their product.

[07JeepXK]

So now what are you going to do? Order the AEV Wheels for the JK??

[Matt]

They followed through. I got a check for a full reimbursement on 5 rims!
Even though they blamed it on bad knuckes from Superlift, they stood behind their product.

That's awesome!

They're definitely on the top of my list just due to that costumer service now.

[TrialByFire]

So now what are you going to do? Order the AEV Wheels for the JK??

I ordered some Pro Comp 17x8" 0-offset steel rims (4.5" backspace). I'm tired of ripping up nice alloy rims on rocks.

I do give AEV credit for their customer service. It's very nice to encounter that kind of company.

[pjmjr508]

I ordered some Pro Comp 17x8" 0-offset steel rims (4.5" backspace). I'm tired of ripping up nice alloy rims on rocks.

I do give AEV credit for their customer service. It's very nice to encounter that kind of company.

This setup will allow to run without spacers with your oversize tires right?

[Matt]

^^yup. That's like having 1.5" spacers on stock wheels.

[pjmjr508]

Thats what I thought & I like the steel wheel idea as well. I have 3 bent stock rims & need to replace & thinking steel will hold up better to what I do.

[valpacer]

Thats what I thought & I like the steel wheel idea as well. I have 3 bent stock rims & need to replace & thinking steel will hold up better to what I do.

Thats actually why i went with the AEV savegres, bent more factory rims than i can make into garden hose reels, and the steel wheels we get down here are very heavy compared. I havent even managed to get the Savegres any damage yet. I am running the JK offset too, the +10mm ones.

[TrialByFire]

Well the ProComp wheels didn't fit. They hit the calipers, so because of time constraints (I leave for the Rubicon Trail on Wednesday), I ended up getting some MB allow rims which Discount Tire had in stock: 17x8.5" with a -6mm offset. They're not bad-looking. We double checked for clearance at full droop and no problems. I really didn't want alloy rims again but, what the heck, they were cheaper than the steel.

[07JeepXK]

I must have missed this. I could have told you a 17x8 steel wheel with 4.5 inch BS wouldn't clear the caliper. I know this because I'm running them with my 33's and 1/4 spacers up front.

[TrialByFire]

I must have missed this. I could have told you a 17x8 steel wheel with 4.5 inch BS wouldn't clear the caliper. I know this because I'm running them with my 33's and 1/4 spacers up front.

I had a set of 1/4" spacers but the studs really aren't long enough for spacers. Do yours just barely get enough threads to feel secure?

[Sal-XK]

I ran a 1/4" spacer up front for awhile with no issues and that included a couple of wheeling trips. It held but I never did like it and got them off when I had the chance.

[07JeepXK]

I had a set of 1/4" spacers but the studs really aren't long enough for spacers. Do yours just barely get enough threads to feel secure?

It's got enough threads. I have been wheeling it without any issues. I found another set of steel wheels 17x9 with 4.25 BS that won't need spacers. Once these new tires are bald I'll get them along with some 305/70s

[TrialByFire]

The MB TKO's seem to be working fine. We'll see how well they hold up on the Rubicon Trail.

[07JeepXK]

Pictures please!!

[pjmjr508]

Pictures please!!

X2!!!!!!!!!!!!!