Warning to those with Superlifts [Archive]

Matt

07-13-2013, 04:06 PM

Check your pinion angles. If you're not having an issue, i suspect one of two things:

1) Your u-joint is in great shape... and you'll eventually have an issue

or

2) You're running aggressive tires and don't realize you're having an issue yet.

Mark (lekmedm) recently had a SL 4" installed, standard height, and asked me to check out a few issues he has noticed since the lift install. Most concerning to me was the drone sound he had at highway speeds, especially with light throttle applied. I knew it was either his pinion bearing or the u-joint.

Well, regardless I was not happy with the pinion angle from the SL install. So whether that was the cause of the noise or not, in my opinion it needed to be corrected. He ordered new upper control arms from Rustys Offroad earlier this week. By skipping the powder coating he was able to get them on Friday and we put them in today.

The new arms (pictures below) corrected his pinion angle and eliminated the drone noise. I'm yet again disheartened at the fact that a company like Superlift would miss something like this. Looks like when im ready to put on my 4" kit I know of a guaranteed $240 addition to the kit (unless superlift fixes it in the mean time).

Some pics of the new Rustys arm and before/after pinion angles:

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/20130713_142653_zps755e2edf-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/20130713_142708_zps2ee7fc64-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/20130713_142714_zpsa459aae8-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/20130713_130540_zpsd6837aea-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/20130713_150523_zps06e8725c-1.jpg

07JeepXK

07-13-2013, 05:34 PM

This is the first I'm hearing of bad pinion angles after a Superlift install. Last I knew Superlift provided both upper and lower brackets for the control arms to correct the pinion angles. Were both the upper and lower brackets installed and the pinion angle still looked like that??

Matt

07-13-2013, 05:38 PM

They actually don't supply brackets for the lowers anymore, they have a re-designed lower arm. The upper brackets were installed correctly. I'm wondering if this is an artifact of their quick LCA redesign....

Like said in the beginning of the post, i'm guessing most don't realize they have an issue because most guys run much more aggressive tires. Mark's running a relatively mild A/T so the drone noise was easily noticeable.

I'd be interested in seeing other member's pinion angles with the superlift installed.

07JeepXK

07-13-2013, 06:18 PM

Hmmm well I've seen several superlifted XK's and WK's with the older kit (upper and lower brackets) and the pinion angle was spot on.

I like the idea of adjustable control arms better then brackets anyways so at least him upgrading helped improve his lift kit

lekmedm

07-13-2013, 07:19 PM

Looks like when im ready to put on my 4" kit I know of a guaranteed $240 addition to the kit (unless superlift fixes it in the mean time).

Since we now know how long the new uppers need to be, someone could order fixed-length arms that should be less expensive.

Sent from wherever my Jeep takes me.

stites-xk

07-13-2013, 08:25 PM

What parts did you use?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

07JeepXK

07-13-2013, 08:29 PM

I'm curious what some only the 5+ inch lifted guys pinion angles look like

valpacer

07-14-2013, 01:27 AM

As far as I know most have adjustables on, and in my case I replaced the factory shaft with a custom double cardan shaft as well

Dave

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2

The_War_Wagon

07-14-2013, 04:49 AM

We've gotta re-do the shock towers and rear axle geometry on my RC because of this! New HD driveshafts and U-joints aside, bad angles make for SHORT wheeling sessions... and long rides on rollbacks... :(

Matt

07-14-2013, 05:09 AM

What parts did you use?

Just called up Rustys Offroad and said we needed adjustable upper arms for the XK. They already had the specs on file (makes me think we're not the first to actually see this issue).

stites-xk

07-14-2013, 07:17 AM

Just called up Rustys Offroad and said we needed adjustable upper arms for the XK. They already had the specs on file (makes me think we're not the first to actually see this issue).

Cool thanks! Did you have to drop the gas tank for the install?

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lekmedm

07-14-2013, 08:43 AM

Cool thanks! Did you have to drop the gas tank for the install?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Yes, we did the drop. You can't pull the front bolt otherwise.

Sent from wherever my Jeep takes me.

Matt

07-14-2013, 10:18 AM

Cool thanks! Did you have to drop the gas tank for the install?

The tank doesn't need to be fully removed, and the lines can remain connected. I removed all gas tank skid bolts except for the one directly over the front of the rear driveshaft (cause that's a PITA to get out without disconnecting the shaft). Using a good floor jack, lower the tank slowly, just enough to slide the bolt out. Be careful of the fuel pump electrical wires; the control arm bolt will need to slide over them so you want to make sure not to "force" the bolt or you might damage those wires.

Gulf550

07-14-2013, 04:21 PM

http://www.theultimatejeep.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2032&d=1373843129

here is a picture of mine. I do not notiice any noise, but I do have aggressive tires that are very loud.

oleblue27

07-14-2013, 04:47 PM

http://www.theultimatejeep.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2032&d=1373843129

here is a picture of mine. I do not notiice any noise, but I do have aggressive tires that are very loud.

You might wana invest in som e new uca's! Lol.

Gulf550

07-14-2013, 05:12 PM

Yup I agree

Matt

07-14-2013, 05:24 PM

Yup I agree

Do you have the kit with new lower control arms?

1USMC

07-14-2013, 05:27 PM

Great ..... another thing to remember to check on when I get home the next time........

Gulf550

07-14-2013, 05:33 PM

Yes Matt. I ordered the lower control arms separately and installed them.

lekmedm

07-14-2013, 06:34 PM

lekmedm

07-17-2013, 06:53 AM

Great ..... another thing to remember to check on when I get home the next time........

Hey, when you get a chance, would you also post a picture of your pinion angle? I think it's important to see the consistency of this issue.

stites-xk

07-17-2013, 08:21 AM

Here's minehttps://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/javygapy-1.jpg

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Matt

07-17-2013, 08:38 AM

That's a bad camera angle man.... try getting one from the side at about the same height at the ujoint.

Wonder how your LCAs compare to Superlifts in terms of length...

stites-xk

07-17-2013, 08:44 AM

My LCA's are set to 17.75" I think that is what SL had their new ones set to!

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lekmedm

07-17-2013, 08:44 AM

Wonder how your LCAs compare to Superlifts in terms of length...

...and how the wheels are centered in the rear arches.

1USMC

07-17-2013, 09:51 AM

Hey, when you get a chance, would you also post a picture of your pinion angle? I think it's important to see the consistency of this issue.

I defiantly will.... err I mean definitely will ... ya ya thats it !

Adondo

07-24-2013, 05:03 PM

U-Joint angles have been an issue with lift kits since William Shakespeare was still writing plays. :p

Just about EVERYTHING changes with a lift kit, even a 2" one. You need to install the kit, then have a good frame and/or alignment shop check everything. At the very least, it'll need realigned even with a mild lift because things gets changed and moved, including the rear axle which can shift around and the like. They need to also check for crabbing; like those "redneck" lifted Ford trucks of whom you can see one whole side when you're following it. I've seen some so bad, the guy's driving while looking out the wing window. :D

A 4" lift also causes problems with steering gear like control arms and tie rod angles etc. (Especially with solid front axles)

I would imagine every lift kit maker will have parts and advice as to what needs to be included, but IMHO, I think a 4" kit should just automatically include new links, tie rods, sway bar links, and whatever else to make things not be strained to limits after the kit's installed.

Matt

07-24-2013, 05:06 PM

^^ yeah we know all of that.

Point is, the Superlift doesn't come with the proper links to correct the pinion angle.

Alignment shops can only adjust what is adjustable. If there's no adjustment, you're SOL until you get some better parts.

07JeepXK

07-24-2013, 06:21 PM

Well at least everyone knows what to look for now and if the pinion angle is bad its an easy fix! Just pull out your wallet though

1USMC

07-27-2013, 06:16 PM

.

This first photo was taken from as close as I could get to perpendicular and the same height.

The rest are from varying angles FYI..

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/DSCN1025_zpsdc7bbd1d-1.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/rgerd/media/Drive%20line%20angle/DSCN1025_zpsdc7bbd1d.jpg.html)

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/DSCN1028_zps627b8860-1.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/rgerd/media/Drive%20line%20angle/DSCN1028_zps627b8860.jpg.html)

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/DSCN1026_zps5fb58c6e-1.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/rgerd/media/Drive%20line%20angle/DSCN1026_zps5fb58c6e.jpg.html)
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/07/DSCN1027_zpse3c4cab0-1.jpg (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/rgerd/media/Drive%20line%20angle/DSCN1027_zpse3c4cab0.jpg.html)

Ok..... whats the prognosis ??

07JeepXK

07-27-2013, 06:47 PM

That pinion angle isn't all that bad but could use a slight adjustment with adjustable control arms.

Matt

07-27-2013, 07:08 PM

Ok..... whats the prognosis ??

Definitely doesn't look as bad. I'm thinking those 6" rear springs actually help out.

A set of adjustable UCA's couldn't hurt, but i dont see that angle chewing up any ujoints early.

xjhawk1964

10-15-2013, 01:33 PM

Would a double cardon driveshaft not work here as well?
I am thinking of having one done for the front anyway.

valpacer

10-15-2013, 02:33 PM

Even with a DC rear shaft (i have one in mine, needed for anything over 4" IMO) you still need to align the pinion with the shaft. Each vehicle is proving to be slightly different with some getting a good angle and some worse with the supplied arms.

07JeepXK

10-16-2013, 06:39 AM

valpacer

10-16-2013, 12:40 PM

Correct.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/08/DSC_0258-1.jpg (http://s108.photobucket.com/user/valpacer/media/Jeep%20WH%20WK%20Grand%20Cherokee/DSC_0258.jpg.html)

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/08/DSC_0257-1.jpg (http://s108.photobucket.com/user/valpacer/media/Jeep%20WH%20WK%20Grand%20Cherokee/DSC_0257.jpg.html)

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2012/08/DSC_0256-1.jpg (http://s108.photobucket.com/user/valpacer/media/Jeep%20WH%20WK%20Grand%20Cherokee/DSC_0256.jpg.html)

07JeepXK

10-17-2013, 04:56 AM

Any pics of the rear shaft?

valpacer

10-18-2013, 04:31 PM

That is the rear shaft :D Ignore the old front shaft in the back of the pic! wasnt there for any reason other than it was on the bench!

The spacer goes between the tcase and the Double cardan.

07JeepXK

10-20-2013, 03:27 AM

Nice! I think I could use one of those

powderhorn

10-24-2013, 08:13 PM

Called Rustys Offroad yesterday and ordered the adjustable upper arms should be here in a couple days. Thanks for the heads up Mark!

lekmedm

10-25-2013, 05:20 AM

Called Rustys Offroad yesterday and ordered the adjustable upper arms should be here in a couple days. Thanks for the heads up Mark!

Just curious... What prompted you to place the order? Are you hearing noise, or is this just prophylactic?

I also wonder how your front drive shaft is holding up. Brad at Carolina Driveline told me that he sees a lot of lifted Grand Cherokees that use these shafts (since MY1999!) and have them failing at the TC. I'll be the first XK getting this setup.

powderhorn

10-25-2013, 08:14 PM

Prophylactic , sounds like a Medical Device!! My oldest kid 32 can come up with some words, but on the other hand he is a Blackhawk Helecopter Pilot. How about a little preventive maintenance. No noise yet. Front Driveline seems OK so far. Only 39k miles.
I also had a 99 Grand Cherokee that I lifted never had any drive line issues got rid of it at 135k mi.
My Dodge 2500 Diesel has a front drive line like your getting and I think my old CJ7 did too. New design not always better. But I never thought I would have a independent front end either.

lekmedm

10-28-2013, 05:06 AM

Prophylactic , sounds like a Medical Device!! My oldest kid 32 can come up with some words, but on the other hand he is a Blackhawk Helecopter Pilot. How about a little preventive maintenance. No noise yet. Front Driveline seems OK so far. Only 39k miles.

Medical is what I'm all about, but that sounds boring compared to Blackhawk Helicopter Pilot!

Matt

11-01-2013, 06:37 AM

Hey Mark... with the Superlift are you able to replace the front driveshaft without dropping the trans crossmember?

lekmedm

11-01-2013, 06:38 AM

Hey Mark... with the Superlift are you able to replace the front driveshaft without dropping the trans crossmember?

Nope! :D

Sent from wherever my Jeep takes me.

Matt

11-01-2013, 06:40 AM

Damn.... I have two "good" OEM front shafts so I figure i'll wear them both out before upgrading after I do the SL. Was hoping it was a but easier to swap them out after the lift install!

lekmedm

11-01-2013, 06:47 AM

Damn.... I have two "good" OEM front shafts so I figure i'll wear them both out before upgrading after I do the SL. Was hoping it was a but easier to swap them out after the lift install!

Well, maybe you can sell your new one? What does OEM cost? I think if I were to recommend the SL to anyone today, I would tell them to do a "one and done" install with the rear UCAs and front DS. More cash, but just one job.

Jay also had to drop/loosen the crossmember to get the DS in. It's not too bad when you support the trans. Just need the four bolts on either end.

Sent from wherever my Jeep takes me.

Matt

11-01-2013, 06:52 AM

Oh i'll definitely be doing the rear UCA's at the same time.

I already have the "new" driveshaft in.... so neither are brand new (i thought it was causing an issue that it wasnt). The R&R dropping the trans crossmember isn't that bad; was just hoping it was a 10 minute job after the superlift instead of a 30 minute job. :)

powderhorn

11-03-2013, 06:11 PM

Still waiting on the UCA's look like they are built to order. Sounds like they are out for powder coating should ship soon. Sounds like the new DS is the way to go. Not a big fan of the CV joint drive line. My Dodge Diesel has the good ol u joints and double Cardon on the front. Changed the joints in the rear last year they are way big!!

powderhorn

11-09-2013, 08:14 PM

Just installed the Rustys Upper Control Arms to correct the pinion angle. Had to cut off the small mount for the sensor and weld onto the new one, mine is a 2010. Don't know when they started putting the sensors on the links and A arms?
Had to drop the fuel tank in the rear to get the one bolt out. Other than that it went pretty easy. Pinion angle now straight!!

lekmedm

11-09-2013, 08:22 PM

powderhorn

11-10-2013, 07:52 AM

Electronic Stability Program and Traction Control System. It has a position sensor on the left UAC and right Upper A arm and a position sensor on steering wheel. Don't know when they started this maybe someone here will know. I think thy is why superlift had AEV come up with a module to hook in to the steering sensor and recalibrate for tire dia. Some with larger tires freaked out the brain as the newer models have gotten more sensitive.

powderhorn

11-10-2013, 09:06 AM

Found this in the manual.
ESP uses sensors in the vehicle to determine the vehicle
path intended by the driver and compares it to the actual
path of the vehicle. When the actual path does not match
the intended path, ESP applies the brake of the appropriate
wheel to assist in counteracting the oversteer or
understeer condition.
Don't you just hate it when someone or something is trying to help you drive.

powderhorn

11-10-2013, 04:25 PM

Here is a couple pics of the wonderful sensors. As you can see I spent hours detailing underneath.

07JeepXK

11-10-2013, 09:51 PM

I seen the same thing on an Escalade my buddy was working on Saturday night

lekmedm

10-23-2014, 07:37 PM

PJ... check this thread!

Sent from wherever my Jeep takes me.

pjmjr508

01-07-2015, 11:05 PM

2462
My Current angle before the new UCA's & DS
2463
The new Rusty's Rear UCA's
2464
New DC Rear DS

The_War_Wagon

01-08-2015, 07:20 AM

After addressing a YEAR'S worth of bad pinion angles on my Ramcharger, and even building a custom double-cardon driveshaft for it, this thread is suddenly VEDDY, VEDDY, INTERESTING to me!

NOT a Superlift I know, BUT... anyone familiar with any issues on the Daystar 2" lift? I'm looking FORWARD to it, but a) it's my DD, so it's GOTTA go, the moment it leaves the garage, and b) it ain't PAID FOR yet!!! :eek:

The warranty is expired, which is why I've waited 3+ years to tackle this, but I REALLY don't wanna start messing with driveshaft angles on my DD hotrod!!!

Matt

01-08-2015, 08:15 AM

Nothing to worry about with the 2" lifts. Mod on my friend.

thance

01-08-2015, 09:01 AM

OK, so when I am gently accelerating up a hill (actually applying throttle to maintain speed) I get a heavy vibration from the drive components. It feels like I am running on grated asphalt ready for repaving. Is this a symptom of a bad pinion angle? I'm running the OME HD with F150 Monroe Load Levelers - so it is close to SL height without any driveshaft angle adjustments.

07JeepXK

01-09-2015, 06:34 AM

Pj does the double ujoint end bolt up to the transfer case on that shaft? If so that's weird how they built it. My steel rear drive shaft has the slip yolk portion closer to the transfer case, not the rear axle. Was told by the shop this helps protect that portion of the shaft from rocks since its up higher and also keeps crap from getting into the seal.

pjmjr508

02-18-2015, 05:52 PM