Uni-ball UCA's... you read that right! [Archive]

Matt

11-17-2013, 08:46 PM

Reached out to a company today after i saw they made some HD uniball UCA's for the WK. They're in the process of joining the forum but I thought you guys would appreciate a preview of what they have to offer (http://www.american-motorsports.net/?page=home) :cool:

I've recommended a minor design tweak. Looking forward to them joining up and discussing their arms and anything else they have in mind for the XK/WK platform.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/538322c8816c08b4953719cc1a37d44f_zpsd71d-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/84047150d5170375fc6d266db4735d1e_zpse003-1.jpg

07JeepXK

11-18-2013, 03:49 AM

Is this a random picture of their product for another vehicle or is this the WK version you speak of?

Matt

11-18-2013, 05:22 AM

Its the actual wk arm. Once they're signed up here I have a bunch of questions and measurements id like to see..... but definitely excited we have another option. I don't believe anyone is running these yet and haven't even seen them mentioned on JF. Im not on FB so not sure if they were mentioned there?

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/02b8d3264db31c5c202afada660ef773_zps8ee6-1.jpg

oleblue27

11-18-2013, 10:40 AM

Those look beefy as hell! Lol

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Ross

11-18-2013, 11:57 AM

Pair those with some uniball HD LCA's and adjustable Coilovers and we gotta a baja rig!

paroxysym

11-18-2013, 02:48 PM

whats the benefit of uni-ball?

Matt

11-18-2013, 03:38 PM

Higher strength and a much larger range of motion.

One of the things I do think they need to improve on these arms is to put the uniball at a slight angle...At normal ride height (the picture with the tire) you can see the angle it's already on; so it could benefit benefit from being rotated similar to the JBA/RRO/etc arms.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/a03ff8b99cd67068aeaab45d2b08c2a8_zps0395-1.jpg

With this picture at full drop it looks maxed out. I'd rotate that uniball mount at least to where the red lines are.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/SideAngle_zps7b5560d1-1.jpg

One of the other things I'm happy to see is the use of larger bushings as opposed to the stock ones.

Matt

11-18-2013, 03:51 PM

Here's a good example of how they need to make the angle. These are the HM Engineering arms that Omelette is running.

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/photo4_zps94343f42-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/photo21_zpsbef4e9d5-1.jpg

https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/c01447f4_zps9b59aecb1-1.jpg

Honestly I like the bulk/square/beefy look of the AM (American Motorsports) arms better; kind of reminds me of the lines of the XK :cool:...but they do have a bit of tweaking to do. In their E-mail they seemed very open to improvements... so hopefully they take kindly to the constructive criticism.

07JeepXK

11-18-2013, 07:11 PM

The first thing I noticed when I looked at the picture was that the angle of where the uni-ball is mounted needs to be angled. I love my JBA and wouldn't change to a Uni-ball but like you said its nice knowing there are other options out there

Matt

11-19-2013, 04:14 AM

Yeah I doubt id recommend going from JBA to AM. But for someone who wants to upgrade stock arms, more/different options are great.

Im also intrigued on where AM got the idea to make wk arms. .... maybe an employee there wanted a set? Might be a lucky break for the wk/xk market if they'd consider making other products too :)

Core XK

11-19-2013, 06:35 PM

They look awesome. Im glad they are open and responded to you. Im excited to finally get aftermarket UCAS lol

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JustinS

11-19-2013, 07:19 PM

Whats the price on the AM arms?

Matt

11-19-2013, 07:36 PM

They don't have them listed on their site yet so im not sure.

I just sent them another email with a link to this thread.

RyanD

11-19-2013, 10:01 PM

They don't have them listed on their site yet so im not sure.

I just sent them another email with a link to this thread.

Given that I just did the ome lift and still have stock arms, I'm definitely interested in these. In fact, I'm open to prototyping them if they're interested in a test truck :)

lekmedm

11-20-2013, 06:05 AM

Does anyone make an UCA that has caster adjustment? I assume the answer is "no", but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Matt

11-20-2013, 06:37 AM

Nope. With some minor modifications though we'd be able to get some cammed UCA bolts which would enable both camber & caster adjustments regardless of which arms are installed. Not sure the need is really there though.

06JeepXKHEMI

11-20-2013, 06:40 AM

I was on stock arms after my OME lift and mine specs were dead on, never had a problem other than the steering wheel not being straight from a poor mechanic

Matt

11-20-2013, 06:46 AM

It would probably be easier to increase the slot size for the lca mounting point if more adjustment is needed.....

But back on topic; I know they signed up so hopefully we hear from AM soon. Looking forward to hearing their thoughts on the design improvements I recommemded in this thread and emails. :)

oleblue27

11-20-2013, 10:17 AM

Ross

11-20-2013, 12:36 PM

I was looking at their website last night and all I can say is WOW!!! They're long travel suspensions are insane, especially they're ford ranger crossbeam design:http://american-motorsports.net/?page=suspension&suspensionId=3

If I my XK was 2wd I would seriously consider trying to work with them on a swap to a long travel suspension up front.

Kinda small, but here's a pic of the ranger in the link:

adud83

11-20-2013, 12:57 PM

I would be interested in a set of these as well. I was looking at the JBA UCA, but I might just hold off a little and see where this goes.

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powderhorn

11-20-2013, 07:07 PM

That looks like a good idea tweaking the angle for full extension. How about the angle at full compression? Would tweaking the angle affect the angle at full compression? I may be interested in a set was thinking about JBA arms. How about changing the joint later on? Pressing out? Cost? JBA arms look like a bolt in ball joint.

Matt

11-20-2013, 07:26 PM

Compression angle shouldn't be an issue, even with that angle tweaked. You'll slam the UCA into the top of the fenderwell before you reach the same angle that it see's at full extension.

Changing the joint is easy- remove snap ring, press out, press new one in, replace snap ring.

Based on other uniball UCA's on the market, i'm pretty sure cost is gong to be more than JBA arms.

Cost Vs. Benefit ratio is definitely going to include some personal preference....

powderhorn

11-20-2013, 08:07 PM

So it looks like the extension angle change is a must. Just looked at JBA site they have some of the UACs on sale $395.00. Couldn't find the XK one through my I phone may call them and ask price. Searched the moog ball joint , Summit has them for $25.00. Changing the JBA joint looks to be easy.
Also for info I use a two jaw puller to pop the ball joint loose from the steering knuckle instead of using a fork which usually tears up the boot. I used this when doing the teardown to install the lift and did not damage them for the reinstall.

Matt

11-20-2013, 08:14 PM

The JBA arms are $450: http://4xguard.com/commander-2006-2010/jba-upper-a-arms-for-lifted-wk-xk.html

You're wasting you're time with the 2-jaw puller. Take the balljoint nut off, put it on a few threads, smack the spindle flat with a hammer and it pops right off. I've changed hundreds of balljoints/tie-rods/etc and never had to use a puller (ok except for Jacob's pitman arm....)

JBA's a solid product. This looks to be like another solid product with a few tweaks.

edit....to be clear i'll probably be ordering a pair of JBA arms in the next month or so depending on AM's input. I have to admit I love the "look" of the AM arms and im intrigued to try a uniball; but wouldn't order them in their current form over JBA.

RyanD

11-20-2013, 08:36 PM

Not to be completely tacky, but dibs on your RROs (if they already aren't spoken for). :-D

Matt

11-20-2013, 08:42 PM

^^I already promised Corey i'd paint them purple and install them for him after I start swapping my suspension parts for my 6" lift plan

07JeepXK

11-20-2013, 09:04 PM

Matt any reason why your going from RRO to JBA?

RyanD

11-20-2013, 09:21 PM

I figured they were long spoken for, but had to take a shot! Looks like I'm going JBA around Christmas time then!

Matt

11-20-2013, 09:31 PM

Matt any reason why your going from RRO to JBA?

The simple explanation is OCD. I plan on running 5-6" lift and doing some serious wheeling and the kj bushings just don't sit right with me for an xk thats looking to take some serious abuse.

07JeepXK

11-21-2013, 05:16 AM

Makes sense, coming from another person with OCD. I have the old version of the JBA's that were designed around their coilover assembly. I'd like to swap them out someday for their new version.

Matt

11-21-2013, 06:47 AM

I hear ya.

That ties into the other design recommendation I made for the AM arms.... they say there's 1/8" of clearance at the coil which I dont believe is enough (especially if they fix the cup angle and squeak out a bit more travel).

So I recommended getting more clearance by moving the welds further outboard like so:
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/Newangles2_zps2e3a005a-1.jpg
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/Newangles_zps9adc9894-1.jpg

AmericanMotorsports

11-21-2013, 08:41 AM

So I finally can post here on the forum. Im glad you guys are giving us feed back on our new arms that were just placed on a Wk with a 4 in HD EME coils placed on the struts. The customer was having serious issues with the stock arm causing the spindle to rub on the coil isolator preventing anymore down travel. The customer was sick of it squeaking too. We were able to move the arm out away from the spindle and place a uniball in place of the typical balljoint. We found we were able to get almost 2 in of extra down travel. Matt had some really good ideas to maximize the space around the strut. We will be looking into what can be done to improve the arms. PM me for pricing, I need to get approval before posting up pricing. They are more than the JBA arms just FYI. The arms are build with offroading in mine and made from 1/8 4130 Chromoly Plate. The arms are water jet and CNC bent to maintain proper fitment. 2 uniballs with high misalignments, 4 urethane bushing assemblies and a machined tapered spindle adaptor is included with each set.

Let me know if anyone is interested in doing a long travel kit or mid travel kit for the WK.

Matt

11-21-2013, 09:14 AM

Welcome! And glad you're able to finally join in the convo!

Looks like your customer is running a daystar spacer in addition to his OME HD spring. So it definitely makes sense that his spindle was hitting the perch... if he was a member here we could have warned him ahead of time* :)

Do you think you guys will incorporate any of my recommendations? I plan on rebuilding my suspension at the end of December when I have a lot of vacation time that I need to use.... I wouldn't mind testing the prototypes that incorporate my ideas. I'd be happy to beat them up a bit offroad as well!

Would like to hear more about long-travel ideas. Kyle's 2wd.... and a bit crazy like the rest of us.... sounds like a match made in heaven!

oleblue27

11-21-2013, 10:32 AM

I like the idea of a long travel kit! Not so crazy about prices! But I love the idea and might consider it lol.

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AmericanMotorsports

11-21-2013, 01:17 PM

Matt here is a question for you. Lets see how you might design them. The top and bottom plates need to be one piece design so your drawings in the pic wont work. Lets see what you come up with. Also if you remove that 1/8 inch of material and you allow for a little more drop out the uniball cup will be the next part to hit. So how much more wheel travel will the WK gain with removing 1/8 inch of material. Is it worth it? I have the customer coming in on Sat. to take some more pics and get some pis with the suspension flexed out some action pics. Oh and this was a random customer that came into my shop for these arms other than that as you can see on my website Im more of a toyota specialist. I have to say i was really impressed with the WK interior, motor and look, so Im thinking im might have to get one........

Matt

11-21-2013, 01:41 PM

Im not sure I follow what the issue is. The top and bottom plates can still be one piece and can be cut to the shape I outlined.

If I was making this for where I work I would model it, rotate the cup a few degrees and get the new cut profile that would simplify the compound angle for arm-to-cup interface.

The 1/8 clearance I was referring to is distance to the spring at full drop....thats not enough to account for vehicle tolerances..... I wouldn't want my arms hitting the springs while offroading.

Right now it looks like the uniball is maxed out at full droop.... I wouldn't want the uniball to be the suspension limiter; Let the strut limit full extension.

To answer your question on if I think my suggestions are "worth it"..... for an arm thats a premium price over the JBA arms id say yes.. an emphatic yes. Leave no question in anyones eyes that your arms are merely equal (if not currently inferior) to a competitor, especially an established competitor like JBA.

JBA recently redesigned their arms to optimize them for lifted WKs. Pretty sure I emailed the link to jeepforum for you to check out. He made 4 or 5 iterations to try out until they were perfect.

Just an FYI your customer is running a double-stacked lift that isnt generally recommended. When you get it back in measure the distance from center of hub to bottom of fender.... most 2-3" lifted WKs measure about 22.5".

Edit: do you have a 3D model of your arms? Id be happy to mess around with it.... you wouldn't be able to use the file since I only have a student version of ProE at home (I get a license every year as part of a mentorship I do) but I could at least get some better screen shots than ms paint lines lol

Matt

11-21-2013, 01:43 PM

Find a WK with quadra-drive 2 and go offroading. ... you'll really be impressed :)

AmericanMotorsports

11-21-2013, 02:42 PM

On my design the top plate is one piece from the front to the back holding the 2 bushing assemblies. Your design has 2 separate arms that weld to the side of the uniball cup. My design keeps the strength of the front and rear arms together as one piece and doesn't rely on the uniball cup for structural part of the arm. Its only the joint that allows for articulation. Your arm design uses the uniball cup for structural strength which the uniball cup isnt that thick and Ive seen then rip apart from off-roading and hard hits. Which isnt a good sight. My background is desert racing. So most of the reason for my designs is because of weak points Ive have encountered during my years fabricating. Hence the reason I dont rely on another manufactured part to be the structural strength of my arms. Also you dont want the strut being the limiting factor in your suspension because when the shaft blows out of the strut you arent going anywhere. You dont want ball joints over extending which cause them early fatigue and possibly breaking them. Uniballs on the other hand are made to be run at there limit and yes i do recommend running a limit strap to stop them before they 100% max out but they can max out because they are only full max out for a fraction of a sec before the suspension compresses again. Matt you have some great ideas I wish you were in California Id hire you because you really know your stuff and I could use a good man to push my mind to my limits. I dont ever stop learning. It like put these on a customers truck with just the EME HD spring lift and see where the arms sit.

Matt

11-21-2013, 03:42 PM

I'll have to take a closer look at your pics when I get home tonight. ... Didnt realize yours wrap around the bushings like that; thats pretty cool!

Though I dont think my idea relies on cup strength any more than your current welds do. ... probably a fault of trying to express my thoughts as little lines lol. (Edit: I think I see what you mean now... I have an idea ill have to play with :))

For limiting the suspension using the strut isn't ideal by any means.... but im leary of the aluminum around the joint taking a beating; especially with the added leverage caused by the uniball location. I can drive out with a blown strut; not going anywhere if my knuckle breaks. Thoughts?

Keep in mind we do slow speed trail riding/crawling. .. not high speed racing/jumping.

Core XK

11-21-2013, 05:17 PM

^^I already promised Corey i'd paint them purple and install them for him after I start swapping my suspension parts for my 6" lift plan

Paints them Silver****

Matt

11-21-2013, 07:01 PM

The customer was having serious issues with the stock arm causing the spindle to rub on the coil isolator preventing anymore down travel. The customer was sick of it squeaking too.

[AM... do you have a first name?]

I was thinking about this on my way home tonight and, well, forget everything we've been talking about so far.... i think there's another issue here.

When I first saw the pictures you sent I thought your customer only had a daystar lift. I didn't realize he also had the OME HD coils for a "stacked" lift. His issue with the spindle rubbing the isolator with the stock arms is a product of his lift method that is avoided like the plague amongst XK/WK owners (same suspension btw). Kyle (oleblue27) can vouch for this... he tried a similar setup against mine and 07JeepXK's recommendation... and ended up ordering the 4" superlift within a month or so!

With that said, you solved your customers problem by moving the spindle further away from the strut, right? The problem here is that for the majority of properly lifted WK/XKs, your method of solving your customers problem is counter-productive to the design we need to get our alignment in spec.

Due to a lack of camber adjustment in the LCA, our aftermarket arms are designed to add some negative camber to help get our alignments within spec. Your arms effectively added some positive camber, correct? (because negative would have pulled the spindle into the strut)

Below is a picture of a stock arm and two pictures of aftermarket arms that members use that produce good alignment specs....

STOCk:
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/20120804130205-1.jpg

RRO:
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/20120805112835-1.jpg

JBA New Design:
https://theultimatejeep.com/images/imported/2013/11/516878d1354383784jbaucaswknewversion1116-1.jpg

Do you have another set of arms made already? I'll be tearing apart my suspension the weekend after Thanksgiving to replace a lower balljoint (the boot got torn). If you send me an arm and a return label I'll throw it on, take some measurements/pictures/etc and then send it back to you.

Matt

11-21-2013, 07:29 PM

Side Note: I go to San Diego for work on occasion..... next time i'm there and have time to kill I'd love to some see the shop! Looks like you're only 30-40 minutes from there?

AmericanMotorsports

11-25-2013, 07:46 PM

Matt, Ill get you some measurements when i get in the shop tomorrow. We are building 2 more sets but these sets will have heim joints instead of bushing assemblies which will allow for better camburg and caster adjustment. These will be tested on on 2 jeepspeed WK race trucks so ill have some really good feed back from the abuse they will be handling. Definitly you should come by the shop if you are every in San Diego. You can see my operation. Just hit me up anytime.