Conflict of Interest

[SkidMarx]

Then I don't see how him being a moderator can be an issue. He will always be the Ultimate Mod.
If the question is whether or not he should exercise his rights or to what extent, that's a bit different.
Knappster already stated he wasn't going to moderate the vendor section. I would think that's enough.
I imagine only competing vendors would really worry about unfairness, but I think they should remember that one of their competitors is allowing them to advertise on his site and they should act accordingly. i.e. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
I'm sure the other Mods will step in if needed.

A note under his UID (whichever one he chooses) that says 'Site Owner' might clear up any questions any of us newbs have.

[cico7]

I imagine only competing vendors would really worry about unfairness, but I think they should remember that one of their competitors is allowing them to advertise on his site and they should act accordingly. i.e. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

The competitors are paying to advertise here, or so i thought. If that is the case, then the site
owner needs to be considerate of how his actions could affect his paying advertisers and how not to offend them.

As far as "owner" goes, that isnt really that important for him to advertise that. is it?

[LWM]

The competitors are paying to advertise here, or so i thought. If that is the case, then the site
owner needs to be considerate of how his actions could affect his paying advertisers and how not to offend them.

Here is a perfect post to show the example of needing two log-ons, I cannot answer this as a vendor because it is a forum business comment, not a Steel Armadillo comment.

Half of the current vendors were given a free sponsorship through December 31, 2011 by the forum owner as a way to promote their businesses and provide sources to forum members, they did NOT pay to be here. Those choosing to pay for a sponsorship will remain after that date, all others will be removed (like any other forum would do).

Any vendor that is removed will be for lack or payment NOT because they are competitors, I know one competitor has indicated desire to purchase and stay on and we will see how that works out in 30 days.

Other Vendors have already paid their 2012 fees and will remain through the lenght of their aggreement with the forum owner.

[cico7]

As far as "owner" goes, that isnt really that important for him to advertise that. is it?

I got carried away with "that". I am saying it is not really important for Jon to advertise he is the owner. Better?

[SkidMarx]

The competitors are paying to advertise here, or so i thought. If that is the case, then the site
owner needs to be considerate of how his actions could affect his paying advertisers and how not to offend them.

As far as "owner" goes, that isnt really that important for him to advertise that. is it?

True, but If that was really a problem, I doubt we would be here having this discussion.
Being identified as the owner is just a full disclosure thing. Not really important, but I think it might help.

Here is a perfect post to show the example of needing two log-ons, I cannot answer this as a vendor because it is a forum business comment, not a Steel Armadillo comment.

I prefer your Knappster ID anyway. Is it safe to assume you inform potential vendors that you are also a vendor?
If it's all out in the open then there shouldn't be an issue.

[El Cid]

I said I wanted to put a bit more context on this issue, and I'm trying to do so with a lot of folks' concerns in my head. Then, at the end, I'm going to try to get to a solution (of sorts)...

The crux of the whole matter, as I see it, is that the Ultimate Jeep Forum has grown so strong so quickly and so positively in large part not only because of the freedom to discuss products here but also because some businesses -- including 4xGuard back when that meant me -- made announcing products and discussing them here a regular occasion.

So let's use 4xGuard as an example, since I know it best (though this isn't really about 4xG, you understand).

When Jon was starting this forum, when there were just a handful of folks here, he asked me if I wanted to have 4xG come aboard as a Supporting Vendor. I did so, and I then tried to drive traffic to his forum in whatever way I could. In return, 4xG received an excellent place to freely interact with customers, and I felt that a lot of good came from that as a business. I think a lot of good came to our customers, too, and I think it's pretty much beyond doubt that a lot of good came to this forum.

The question that most vexes me thinking long-term (and hypothetically since we have since sold 4xGuard) is whether I would make the same choice now. That is, if I was 4xG and wasn't on this forum, would I come support it as a manufacturer, knowing that the owner of the forum (and in this hypothetical situation, mind you, I don't know Jon as well as I do) is a competitor? Does hypothetical me honestly want to support a competitor's forum? How fair a shake does hypothetical me think I'm going to get here?

That these questions are being asked -- and they are being asked, because two very real would-be supporting vendors have told me they will not join up because they don't know the answers to them -- isn't Jon's fault, but it is his responsibility. If long-term he wants vendors like 4xGuard taking part in the site, and I think he does, then he needs to have answers. In point of fact, we all need to have the answers. It needs to be transparent, because in the absence of information, misinformation prevails.

Let's keep with the 4xGuard example (and please keep in mind that we're using this as representative of what "vendor X" is going to see in trying to decide whether to support the forum and because it's what I'm familiar with).

Jon/Knappster/SA is on record here as claiming that Steel Armadillo makes "the toughest Rock Slider available." A good thing to say about his own product, of course, and he'd be a fool as a businessman if he didn't want people to buy SA rails instead of RR Supersliders or 4xGuard Side Guards. Fact is, once you're in business, you're not objective. You're in it to make money. No shame in that. At the same time, the forum owner badmouthing competing products, whether explicitly or implicitly, could easily give "vendor X" pause when considering whether to support the forum.

In the big picture, you see, when an unobjective business interest is the owner of the forum it could easily prevent other businesses from utilizing the forum as a means of outreach. Could 4xG have the same relationship with this forum when its owner and uber-Moderator is on record as claiming 4xG's products are inferior to his own? I wonder. And what if 4xG decided to react to Jon's claim, perhaps with engineering schematics? How is that going to go over? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you... but do you dare, as a business, leave such an attack unchallenged?

To return to another recent event: Not long ago, Doc (who makes and helped design SA's sliders) made the claim that 4xG's Side Guards mounted only with a row of cheap pop rivets. This was, as many members quickly pointed out, not true in the slightest. At best it was a lie of ignorance (assuming he didn't even glance under the slider to see the full mounting system), but since Doc is now building SA's sliders, which actually attempt to replicate the very same system, it could well appear that Doc was misleading folks in order to push his (and Jon's) own business interests. So what if 4xG wanted to make a stink about this? What chaos comes then?

Like it or not, the off-road accessories community is a fairly small group of folks. Word travels fast. Friends are long-term and loyal. If they see that something bad happens to one supporting vendor (whom they likely know) at the hands of the forum owner, I wonder if they will think twice about becoming a supporting vendor themselves.

. . .

In a PM to Jon I wrote this:

"I don't have any great advice other than the fact that either you must be vigilant on your own actions when your business is in the picture or you need to rebrand the forum as sponsored by SA."

Making this SA's Ultimate Jeep Forum, with no supporting vendors, honestly does make a lot of these problems (both real and hypothetical) disappear. On the other hand, I don't think this is what Jon wants (though I don't want to speak for him). I think he knows that the active presence of other manufacturers in the forum has been a boon and will continue to bear fruits.

If that is indeed the case, then the only solution is to trust to his own vigilance -- and that of the moderators, too -- and to maintain professional transparency.

As it happens, Jon has given evidence of doing both in this thread. First by creating the thread (transparency), and second by making statements like this:

The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

This one sentence should be mandatory reading for forum members. I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle. Not only should it put one strain of worries to rest, but it says an extraordinary amount about the kind of guy Jon is and the difficulty of the dual roles he has decided to take on. It's a remarkably mature position to take.

It is also worth highlighting here for some folks the fact that Jon is not reading PMs to see what you might be saying about him/his products. This possibility was raised to me off-forum, and it ain't happening. First, Jon doesn't have that much time. Second, he isn't that kind of guy. Third, he doesn't have the capability even if he had the time and the desire. My understanding is that the software assures that such things are truly private.

Jon taking on the additional role of business owner might well be cause for some discussion (which is happening now, and to a positive end, I think), but it sure isn't cause for putting on tinfoil hats.

[Sal-XK]

Here is a copy of the welcome message I've been sending all the new members

Welcome to the ultimate XK/WK forum. Here are some threads to help you get started. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. Also you might want to AKA any of your other forum names if you have any as many of us frequent the same forums. This forum is owned by Jon screen name knappster who also recently started the business The Steel Armadillo. You are free to express your opinions on this forum for or against any products or the forum with out fear. Just keep it respectful and constructive while doing it out of respect for all our members and vendors.

The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

Introduce yourself here
XK-Parts link Check out the must have listed parts
How to post a Picture
How to make a word a Link
What do all the options and buttons mean
Putting a Face to a name thread

Sa-XK

Moderator

The red text and the quote from Jon is what I am proposing we add to that welcome message.

[Matt]

I think a lot of good came out of this discussion.

I will say this..... any vendors who decide to not come on board because Jon is the owner of SA are making a bad decision.

Maybe, due to the uncommon circumstance here, Jon could offer a 3 month "no strings attached" trial to potential vendors. If they don't like the atmosphere or think they're being moderated by SA then they don't stay. But I doubt that'll be the case.

Sal,
I don't think mentioning that Jon owns SA is necessary in the welcome message. Actually that acts somewhat as an "advertisement" for the business.... I think that our discussions in the other thread have already brought about sufficient changes (subtitles in his sig). From there I'm sure Jon will fine tune his usernames once he decides which way he feels most comfortable with going.

[cico7]

I dont disagree with you. When I made that comment, I was thinking in terms of an individual, not as vendor.
If this were only about Jon being a moderator and the owner, I dont think it is extremely important to know he is the owner.
As an advertiser/sponsor I agree 100%. In the words of a man I detest body and soul, I did learn 1 thing from him: Full disclosure or **** em

True, but If that was really a problem, I doubt we would be here having this discussion.
Being identified as the owner is just a full disclosure thing. Not really important, but I think it might help.
I prefer your Knappster ID anyway. Is it safe to assume you inform potential vendors that you are also a vendor?
If it's all out in the open then there shouldn't be an issue.

[ScorpionCrawler]

I have been following along as this thread has developed and I have tried to put myself into the various postions of all parties.
My first thought has to be how much potential financial impact this has to the owner of the site.
Sponsorship 1yr $100, 5yr $500, 25yr $1500.

Sponsorship companys that make similar products to SA would be the only ones affected.
If I was a competing vendor, of the similiar product, I would first be looking at how quick of a return I could get on the sponsorship investment, how much product would be sold from being on this site, and or how much would have to be sold to pay for the sponsorship?
I don't know the markup on armor or the like so how many sets of rock rails does that equate to?

Next, what would be the ramifications of being a sponsor?
Would SA bash my product, unjustly?
I think that threat has been eliminated with the moderators not being SA or knapster.
Anyone can really bash anything, so that threat will always exist, but the conflict would be if it came from SA.
So is sponsorship worth the risk of being bashed???? Only the sponsor could make that decision.

For me the bigger sponsor decision would be the return on sponsorship dollars.
With a few assurances from SA and or the site owner I would make that comittment.
To me it is clear that this is the BEST site for our platform and would be a great place to be a sponsor.

As far as knapster is concerend what is the sponsorship money really worth to him?
How many armor companys are really potential sponsors?
And what is that worth.
Is the value of other armor companys sponsorship worth more?

I don't know Jon personally other than reading his posts for many yrs at the other site and here and the few pms between us.
But the way I see it he has a huge passion for Jeep and his XK.
His comittment to developing the best Jeep formum out there is evident.
His comittment to developing products for us goes way back to the center console storage compartment lock.
The sponsorship part of it only adds to aid in making this site the best.
I haven't witnessed anything from Jon contrary to the good he is doing for the brand, forum wise or product wise.

Jon, having started this discussion also proves his comittment to other sponsors.