Conflict of Interest

[Matt]

The only thing jon needs to work on is remembering which username he's logged in under

[LWM]

All is good, Basically what I have asked the Mods to do is keep me in check, I will refrain from Moderation in the Vendor section in order to:

“act at all times in a manner that promotes public confidence in the independence, integrity, and impartiality of the forum, and shall avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety.”

I will still step in when needed to help hold the forum to the standard that we have grown accustom too. The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

[Matt]

.....in that case....

what's with that S.A. dude? Didn't he promise progress pics of an XK front bumper like 2 weeks ago??? That audacity....

[The_War_Wagon]

I'm still so new to Jeeps, I'm soaking it all in!

Being a moderator on an AR15 board, I can appreciate the struggle between wanting to cut loose, and professionalism - I'm sure that's tougher when you're also a sponsor, although I've seen that managed well elsewhere, too.

I like this board, because of the 6 Jeep forums I joined the first week after buying my Commander , this one is the most responsive, and has the most personable people. Matt saw me on another board and invited me to join, and I haven't been disappointed yet (blame him)!

I also like to spend money where I hang out, so as soon as I get some, I already plan on spending it here (which I realize is a lotta talk, until you ACTUALLY do it, but there you have it...). And other than the crazy guy with no doors on his Commander, I'm thinking no one else here would steer you into something crazy or hazardous - all YOUR rides still have their doors, fenders, & accoutrements relatively intact - a not unimportant consideration to a new board member whose about to mail Payment #2 on his Commander later this week!

I think the strength of this board is in it's low key/low pressure approach to helpfulness. I don't see anyone trying to build "Jeepzilla" here, and y'all have wives you hafta sneak stuff past too (I'm really looking forward to sneaking a 2" lift and 30x9 A/T's past MY wife... to say nothing of custom bumpers, rock rails, winch, and a roof rack ). I ONLY discovered last night in fact, that Knappster and Steel Armadillo are one & the same!

[El Cid]

I said I wanted to put a bit more context on this issue, and I'm trying to do so with a lot of folks' concerns in my head. Then, at the end, I'm going to try to get to a solution (of sorts)...

The crux of the whole matter, as I see it, is that the Ultimate Jeep Forum has grown so strong so quickly and so positively in large part not only because of the freedom to discuss products here but also because some businesses -- including 4xGuard back when that meant me -- made announcing products and discussing them here a regular occasion.

So let's use 4xGuard as an example, since I know it best (though this isn't really about 4xG, you understand).

When Jon was starting this forum, when there were just a handful of folks here, he asked me if I wanted to have 4xG come aboard as a Supporting Vendor. I did so, and I then tried to drive traffic to his forum in whatever way I could. In return, 4xG received an excellent place to freely interact with customers, and I felt that a lot of good came from that as a business. I think a lot of good came to our customers, too, and I think it's pretty much beyond doubt that a lot of good came to this forum.

The question that most vexes me thinking long-term (and hypothetically since we have since sold 4xGuard) is whether I would make the same choice now. That is, if I was 4xG and wasn't on this forum, would I come support it as a manufacturer, knowing that the owner of the forum (and in this hypothetical situation, mind you, I don't know Jon as well as I do) is a competitor? Does hypothetical me honestly want to support a competitor's forum? How fair a shake does hypothetical me think I'm going to get here?

That these questions are being asked -- and they are being asked, because two very real would-be supporting vendors have told me they will not join up because they don't know the answers to them -- isn't Jon's fault, but it is his responsibility. If long-term he wants vendors like 4xGuard taking part in the site, and I think he does, then he needs to have answers. In point of fact, we all need to have the answers. It needs to be transparent, because in the absence of information, misinformation prevails.

Let's keep with the 4xGuard example (and please keep in mind that we're using this as representative of what "vendor X" is going to see in trying to decide whether to support the forum and because it's what I'm familiar with).

Jon/Knappster/SA is on record here as claiming that Steel Armadillo makes "the toughest Rock Slider available." A good thing to say about his own product, of course, and he'd be a fool as a businessman if he didn't want people to buy SA rails instead of RR Supersliders or 4xGuard Side Guards. Fact is, once you're in business, you're not objective. You're in it to make money. No shame in that. At the same time, the forum owner badmouthing competing products, whether explicitly or implicitly, could easily give "vendor X" pause when considering whether to support the forum.

In the big picture, you see, when an unobjective business interest is the owner of the forum it could easily prevent other businesses from utilizing the forum as a means of outreach. Could 4xG have the same relationship with this forum when its owner and uber-Moderator is on record as claiming 4xG's products are inferior to his own? I wonder. And what if 4xG decided to react to Jon's claim, perhaps with engineering schematics? How is that going to go over? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you... but do you dare, as a business, leave such an attack unchallenged?

To return to another recent event: Not long ago, Doc (who makes and helped design SA's sliders) made the claim that 4xG's Side Guards mounted only with a row of cheap pop rivets. This was, as many members quickly pointed out, not true in the slightest. At best it was a lie of ignorance (assuming he didn't even glance under the slider to see the full mounting system), but since Doc is now building SA's sliders, which actually attempt to replicate the very same system, it could well appear that Doc was misleading folks in order to push his (and Jon's) own business interests. So what if 4xG wanted to make a stink about this? What chaos comes then?

Like it or not, the off-road accessories community is a fairly small group of folks. Word travels fast. Friends are long-term and loyal. If they see that something bad happens to one supporting vendor (whom they likely know) at the hands of the forum owner, I wonder if they will think twice about becoming a supporting vendor themselves.

. . .

In a PM to Jon I wrote this:

"I don't have any great advice other than the fact that either you must be vigilant on your own actions when your business is in the picture or you need to rebrand the forum as sponsored by SA."

Making this SA's Ultimate Jeep Forum, with no supporting vendors, honestly does make a lot of these problems (both real and hypothetical) disappear. On the other hand, I don't think this is what Jon wants (though I don't want to speak for him). I think he knows that the active presence of other manufacturers in the forum has been a boon and will continue to bear fruits.

If that is indeed the case, then the only solution is to trust to his own vigilance -- and that of the moderators, too -- and to maintain professional transparency.

As it happens, Jon has given evidence of doing both in this thread. First by creating the thread (transparency), and second by making statements like this:

The basic issue is that I want you as members to feel free to praise or condemn ANY product (including The Steel Armadillo) that you feel the need too without fear of repercussion.

This one sentence should be mandatory reading for forum members. I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle. Not only should it put one strain of worries to rest, but it says an extraordinary amount about the kind of guy Jon is and the difficulty of the dual roles he has decided to take on. It's a remarkably mature position to take.

It is also worth highlighting here for some folks the fact that Jon is not reading PMs to see what you might be saying about him/his products. This possibility was raised to me off-forum, and it ain't happening. First, Jon doesn't have that much time. Second, he isn't that kind of guy. Third, he doesn't have the capability even if he had the time and the desire. My understanding is that the software assures that such things are truly private.

Jon taking on the additional role of business owner might well be cause for some discussion (which is happening now, and to a positive end, I think), but it sure isn't cause for putting on tinfoil hats.

[cico7]

Ok, I have to come clean.......
The true quote:
"A Judge Shall Uphold and Promote the Independence, Integrity, and Impartiality
of the Judiciary, and shall Avoid Impropriety and the Appearance of Impropriety"
was from the original American Bar Association cannons of 1924.

I remembered part of this quote and amended it to fit the need of the forum.
I just changed 2 words, but it really is a good code of conduct.

[cico7]

Mike has the most eloquent way of stating the facts of the case without raising the call to arms or being offensive. Thank you for that.
I heard several comments from others outside the forum about Jon's dual role as moderator and advertiser. I do not believe Jon is a saint,
but I do not believe he would intentionally obstruct or interfere with another advertiser. But let us not become mushy about Jon because he
may never come down, it's getting deep here.....

... perhaps because they don't want you all to hate them, or they don't want to be banned, or who knows what. (If someone could tell me why the heck they write me, I'd love to know; I think it's sorta odd.)

It is, Mike, because you have greater grasp on the written word and were the first to breech the subject without being offensive.
Or as Slim Pickens said it: God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.

[peteyturbo]

I myself am a vendor on a very high traffic car enthusiast forum, and IMHO I think it's a good idea to only have one s/n as a vendor and drop the moderation duties all together out of respect for the other paying vendors. Just put your former username or something to identify your old identity down in your sig and be done with it. You can still have fun and take shots when you are a vendor, as long as your customer service and/or product can back it up..I am new here so please don't take anything I say too seriously.

[Steel Armadillo]

Let's try to post the discussion on identities in this thread: http://www.theultimatejeep.com/showt...-Should-Jon-Be and until the discussion closes I will use this ID only with the comment in the signature as suggested.

[El Cid]

I still want to get back to this in more detail, but I wanted to say thanks, cico7, for the compliment though I don't know it's true.

Nevertheless, your concluding analogy made me laugh, sh*tkicker.

(It's Blazing Saddles, baby!)